Does trading require talent?

all learning is good, all training is good.

But there are those can be trained and those that can't because they they want to go through the pain of hard study to come to the "correct" conclusions.

There is a massive book industry that lets people hear about the latest scientific developments etc, the sad thing is, is that some people automatically think they're experts after reading these books.

I was no being sarcastic, I was being blunt.

You seem to be asserting that simply because we can't at present determine if there is any simpler/smaller "building block of life" or "digital code" then there simply musn't be any. That is illogical and not very scientific.

And this tells me straight that, again, you don't know what it is that you are talking about, nor for that matter what the context of discussion is. For me to explain it clearly to you would require an immense amount of work, because with that comment you have totally got the wrong end of the very slippery stick. You are referring to some incredibly subtle concepts. Very long story short: the bound is there. That's not negotiable.

I will however add that throughout history genetic determinism has been abused and twisted for political ends, look no further than eugenics. Also there's this pervading concept of "improving" the species, whether intelligence has been evolutionarily exhausted in our species etc. . . all things we could write long books about.

The other camp against genetic determinism is that it gives us something that we don't want to hear: we ain't that special, we are the product of a totally impersonal process that doesn't give a f*ck about us. Very, very long story short: this hurts like hell. The emotional response to it is like the absurdest novels of Camus and Sartre.
 
I too have been in the position where I was on a relatively good full timer wage (compared to the rest of the country that is, not The City). However, I was bored s&*tless and I really didn't see where my life was going.

I concur in the case where you are good at your job... it's always a pain to replace someone who is skilled with someone who might not be

When that happens you should leave your job.

It's been [alledgedly] proven that the best way to increase your salary is to constantly change employers every few years

That's how business works. Why should they pay for you to gain skills that would lower your 'barrier to exit' the company.

That's what I hated about full-time work too... I could never stand the bulls*(t.

In the end I gave up caring about all of that.

What level are your programming skills. If you are of an adequate level with a good financial knowledge there are some interesting roles out there. If you're at all quantitative contact Dominic Connor from the Wilmot forum and see if he can help you.

I would disagree, but maybe I'm unusual in liking some of this stuff

With making money at trading you get more time. It is much harder work than I was doing before, but I just feel that I was not in contention with the person who employed me regarding how much I should be making. Money has this horrible effect of tainting relationships with people, and you know it shouldn't but it does.

Also in the old days I use to get really excited about computers, and the thought of wasting a vast amount of time writing your own games engine (rendering, physics, etc. . . ) was something I was aching to do. Over time as I worked at my job it didn't seem a exciting thing anymore. As you earn more they want more from you and in the end it got really intrusive. I literally hate all these f*cking adverts about how you can stay connected, have a mobile office, always be in contact. It just gives your employers new ways to chain a ball to you :cheesy:.
 
all learning is good, all training is good.
We can agree on something at least! :D
temptrader said:
But there are those can be trained and those that can't because they they want to go through the pain of hard study to come to the "correct" conclusions.

There is a massive book industry that lets people hear about the latest scientific developments etc, the sad thing is, is that some people automatically think they're experts after reading these books.
I freely admitted in my post I am no expert. That does not mean I have no understanding at all as you suggested.
temptrader said:
I was no being sarcastic, I was being blunt.
Actually in many respects I would say you were being down right rude.

Using words such as "crap", "idiots with no understanding", "mumbo-jumbo" is not being blunt it is being rude. Dismissing out of hand an opposing veiwpoint because it does not agree with your own is also rude.
temptrader said:
And this tells me straight that, again, you don't know what it is that you are talking about, nor for that matter what the context of discussion is. For me to explain it clearly to you would require an immense amount of work, because with that comment you have totally got the wrong end of the very slippery stick. You are referring to some incredibly subtle concepts. Very long story short: the bound is there. That's not negotiable.
On the point you referenced I do know what I am talking about.

My point with the quote you referenced was not so much about DNA and whether it is or isn't our "digital code". Rather it was about the fact that you seem to believe that if science has not definitively proven something then it simply isn't true.

Many of your responses clearly show that you have no belief in anything that science has not yet proven. That is clear to anyone who reads your posts.

You were even rudely dismissive of a concept that is at the leading edge of quantum physics and that far greater and more open minds than yours are working on right now. How did you put it........"...crap written by people with no understanding" or something to that effect.

I was attempting to point out that you are not so up to date on everything as you think you are. You may have read a book or two about DNA, that does not make you an expert on human limitations and bounds.

Frankly if some of the greatest scientific minds of this world are suggesting from their research that all matter may just be energy then I'm more inclined to believe them than you. No offence intended.

Sorry to tell you, many scientific minds of the world believe the "bound" is very negotiable indeed. Simply because you do not believe that to be true doesn't mean it isn't.
temptrader said:
I will however add that throughout history genetic determinism has been abused and twisted for political ends, look no further than eugenics. Also there's this pervading concept of "improving" the species, whether intelligence has been evolutionarily exhausted in our species etc. . . all things we could write long books about.
Absolutely it has.
temptrader said:
The other camp against genetic determinism is that it gives us something that we don't want to hear: we ain't that special, we are the product of a totally impersonal process that doesn't give a f*ck about us. Very, very long story short: this hurts like hell. The emotional response to it is like the absurdest novels of Camus and Sartre.
We are indeed a product of an impersonal process. We are indeed no more special than anything else in this universe.

Your response seems very emotional indeed. You seem incapable of discussing the issue without being rude and taking personal pot shots. That is unfortunate.

Obviously your mind is well and truly made up on the issue regardless of the scientific evidence that may or may not contradict that viewpoint. That being the case, more power to you and I hope you fully utilise whatever talents and abilities you have right up to whatever limit you place on yourself.

Cheers,
PKFFFW
 
Your response seems very emotional indeed. You seem incapable of discussing the issue without being rude and taking personal pot shots. That is unfortunate.

Obviously your mind is well and truly made up on the issue regardless of the scientific evidence that may or may not contradict that viewpoint. That being the case, more power to you and I hope you fully utilise whatever talents and abilities you have right up to whatever limit you place on yourself.

Cheers,
PKFFFW

Actually PK,

I think his response reflects the frustration in addressing these issues with you. You use pseudo-scientific reasoning and clearly have a view that won't change. In my case I gave up on you. TT hasn't realized the impossibility of reasoning with you on this matter and hence his frustration.
 
Actually PK,

I think his response reflects the frustration in addressing these issues with you. You use pseudo-scientific reasoning and clearly have a view that won't change. In my case I gave up on you. TT hasn't realized the impossibility of reasoning with you on this matter and hence his frustration.
Frustration is one thing, rudeness quite another.

The way I was raised it is considered rude to claim anything you disagree with is crap and written by idiots with no understanding. It is considered rude to refer to another's view point as "mumbo-jumbo. It is considered rude to make assumptions about another person's knowledge on a matter and imply that they have no understanding simply because they disagree with you.

If one is frustrated one can simply say something to the effect of "it is frustrating to me that you refuse to agree with me so I'm not going to discuss the matter with you anymore" as you did. Saying such might not be the best way to discuss a matter, however it certainly would not be considered rude.

As for "pseudo-scientific reasoning" I have done no such thing. I have referenced matterials and examples of scientific research that has been conducted by some of the most brilliant minds on the planet. The fact that you and temptrader are unaware of this research does not mean it is "pseudo-science".

The reasoning I am going to assume you are referring to is only my extrapolations and ideas put forward to point out that this science has the potential to directly refute yours and temptraders point of view. Never have I suggested that my ideas and suggestions have been proven by science as you and temptrader are so keen to do with your own ideas. I have always said "if" and "potentially" and "maybe" as I know that my ideas are no more than my ideas. They are ideas that are somewhat supported by the latest scientific research though, the same can not be said for your's and temptraders ideas. I only do this to show you both that simply because science know's a bit about DNA, biology, how the body works etc, it does not know everything. Therefore conclusions such as the gene's are in total control of our make up and limitations are simply not supported by the scientific evidence as it stands whether you like to admit that or not.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 
Firstly, since when does learning or acquire a certain skill requires one to increase the number of brain cells? As far as I know (but I'll look into the matter) I've always read that by studying, working, learning, the neural processing speed can be altered, which is what makes the brain better and faster at processing complex connections. But - I admit it - I don't know the exact physiological process that go on in the brain. What I do however, is that intelligence is not fixed at birth and neither is the number of brain cells/neurons.

I just googled and the first article I came up with this:

"...For decades, neuroscientists believed the number of new cells, or neurons, in the adult brain was fixed early in life. Adaptive processes such as learning, memory and mood were thought tied to changes in synapses, connections between neurons.

More recently, studies have shown that the adult human brain is capable of producing new brain cells throughout life, a neurogenesis resulting in formation of hundreds of thousands of new neurons each month..."


Looks like whatever your comments are based on, is outdated research. When I have some more time, I'll try and dig up some scientific papers.

There's plenty of information available that contradicts what you are saying:

"It was once thought that the brain stopped producing new brain cells early in its development and that brainpower dimmed as cells died over the years. But in the past decade, researchers have found evidence that the brain continues to generate new brain cells throughout life, even in humans. Studies indicated that challenging environments, which included a number of components, such as pumped-up learning opportunities, social interactions and physical activities, were key to boosting the growth."

Brain cells, like all other cells in the body, die. Skin cells, blood cells and most other cells regenerate. If they didn’t we wouldn’t live very long. It is/was believed that brain cells didn’t regenerate and this explained why memory got worse and senility set in as we aged. If they now think that brain cells do regenerate it is only to replace ones that are damaged or have died.

Brain Cells Found to Regenerate

Cells which grow and divide without respect to normal limits are known as CANCER. There is no logical reason to explain why the brain will suddenly and inexplicably grow new cells. How does the brain discern between useful and useless information? We make this decision consciously. It doesn’t make sense (to me anyway) that the brain will develop new brain cells for a conscious decision. That is almost like saying that if a person spends their life in water they will eventually develop gills and fins. They won’t because nature doesn’t work like that.

My comments are not based on outdated research. They are based largely on personal experience and research and billions of years of evolutionary evidence. If you want to believe there is no biological limit to intelligence then that is your prerogative but intelligence isn’t a goal of nature. A cat will never be as smart as a human no matter how hard it tries because it doesn’t have enough brain cells and never will.
 
Neurogenesis

Brain cells, like all other cells in the body, die. Skin cells, blood cells and most other cells regenerate. If they didn’t we wouldn’t live very long. It is/was believed that brain cells didn’t regenerate and this explained why memory got worse and senility set in as we aged. If they now think that brain cells do regenerate it is only to replace ones that are damaged or have died.

You are right that brain cells can and will regenerate under certain circumstances. I agree on that part.

Cells which grow and divide without respect to normal limits are known as CANCER. There is no logical reason to explain why the brain will suddenly and inexplicably grow new cells.
Logic might have nothing to do with it. But the brain will generate new cells and this has been proven almost a decade ago. 5 years ago scientist managed to prove that the new cells not only mature, but also become part of the existing neural network. This concept is called Neurogenesis: Neurogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adult neurogenesis is a recent example of a long-held scientific theory being overturned, with the phenomenon only recently being largely accepted by the scientific community.

There is much more to be found about this in the prominent scientific journals (Nature obviously), unfortunately it's not so easy (or allowed) to copy & paste this on a public forum. Which I why I provide you with the following links. The evidence is quite conclusive.

Salk Scientists Demonstrate For The First Time That Newly Born Brain Cells Are Functional In The Adult Brain

New Brain Cells Mature and Function

My comments are not based on outdated research. They are based largely on personal experience and research and billions of years of evolutionary evidence. If you want to believe there is no biological limit to intelligence then that is your prerogative but intelligence isn’t a goal of nature. A cat will never be as smart as a human no matter how hard it tries because it doesn’t have enough brain cells and never will.

I never said there weren't limits. Will humans ever be able to run the 100m sprint in under 5 secs? Doubtfully. But as each generation passes, the average IQ of the population increases. (Although there's a lot to say about the classic IQ tests, but let's not go into that for now, because that's a different matter on it's now). I never said IQ mattered a whole lot, I'm just saying you shouldn't see humans as people that a born with fixed abilities, intelligence. If you have anything to substantiate these claims, I'll be happy to read it.

PS: I don't blame you for not being aware of the recent developments. But you shouldn't argue your case unless you have sufficient evidence. As you said yourself, they are largely based on "personal experience" (I wouldn't exactly count that as a scientific criterium). As for "billions of years of evolutionary evidence", I feel to understand what you mean. In fact, evolution serves to demonstrate that humans are not bound to limits. Or else we would all still be making fire with rocks and our bare hands.
 
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Neuroplasticity

From Wikipedia:

Thought and neuroplasticity

The Dalai Lama invited Richard Davidson, a Harvard-trained neuroscientist at the University of Wisconsin-Madison's W.M. Keck Laboratory for Functional Brain Imaging and Behavior to his home in Dharamsala, India, in 1992 after learning about Davidson's innovative research into the neuroscience of emotions. Could the simple act of thinking change the mind? Most scientists believed this idea to be false, but they agreed to test the theory. One such experiment involved a group of eight Buddhist monk adepts and ten volunteers who had been trained in meditation for one week in Davidson's lab. All the people tested were told to meditate on compassion and love. Two of the controls, and all of the monks, experienced an increase in the number of gamma waves in their brain during meditation. As soon as they stopped meditating, the volunteers' gamma wave production returned to normal, while the monks, who had meditated on compassion for more than 10,000 hours in order to attain the rank of adept, did not experience a decrease to normal in the gamma wave production after they stopped meditating. The synchronized gamma wave area of the monks' brains during meditation on love and compassion was found to be larger than that corresponding activation of the volunteers' brains. Davidson's results were published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in November, 2004 and TIME recognized Davidson as one of the ten most influential people in 2006 on the basis of his research.

Enjoy the weekend. More time to study ;)
 
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cv
 
My comments are not based on outdated research. They are based largely on personal experience and research and billions of years of evolutionary evidence. If you want to believe there is no biological limit to intelligence then that is your prerogative but intelligence isn’t a goal of nature. A cat will never be as smart as a human no matter how hard it tries because it doesn’t have enough brain cells and never will.

In an average adult human, how much of the brain is used, % wise?

Market patterns? If people are evolving, why are the patterns not evolving, changing, morphing?

Is it something core? Something prime, that does not change and has not changed since the start of life?

Would cats trading fish as a commodity produce the same patterns?
 
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Actually PK,

I think his response reflects the frustration in addressing these issues with you. You use pseudo-scientific reasoning and clearly have a view that won't change. In my case I gave up on you. TT hasn't realized the impossibility of reasoning with you on this matter and hence his frustration.

You see nine, I wasn't being rude to him - not at all. It's just that for me to engage in any intelligent/logical/formal discussion with these people would require for them to "do a lot of work", and I am NOT here to do that for them. I cannot explain it further than that. If he really wants to know what I am referring to then perhaps he ought to go through the pain of understanding the physics and mathematics that I learnt (and am still learning) and all the high level books I'm going through slowing, unlike some I've been in the f*cking trenches (pardon my french), and maybe we can engage in an intelligible discussion. For the sake of completeness there are philosophical subtleties in the reasoning about DNA and it's implications, but this would also lead one to question the doctorine of science itself and we might end up talking about confidence intervals and probabilistic determinability - yuck. It's like mathematics when they talk about the Axiom of Choice, previous arguments for certain theorems used it, the strange thing was they did not realise they were using it, and on close inspection they realised what was going on.

new_trader,

you and I seem to agree, and you and I also agree that somehow people here just want to believe what they want to believe. Can't change that can we?

Cells which grow and divide without respect to normal limits are known as CANCER

and they do this because their DNA is f*cked. And if you are imaginative enough you will realise that sometimes the body's defences can kill these cells off in certain cases. When it becomes a problem is when they become rampant and consume more resources for multiplication and growth, you now have a asymmetry in growth rates of these super growing cells with normal ones. And that asymmetry is the idea behind chemotherapy, where you are basically poisoning yourself in a controlled way, but because the super growing cells take more resources they will take up more poison and hence will die sooner than the others.

And no, intelligence is NOT a goal of nature. Likewise human beings are not "selected" to be happy, kind, compassionate, altruistic, etc. . . because that was never the selection pressure place on our species. Intelligence was an "accidental" by product of natural selection, just like the others I've mentioned.

Paul71,

There use to be this BS talk that we only use 12% of our brains and the rest laid dormant. Brain science is too complex for us to discuss here - and I wouldn't even dream of discussing it since none of us are qualified.

I find it rather silly and sad that we are just beginning to see how the mind works and yet there are some people seeing things into the result of experiments and thinking it give them "hope". It was the same with Mitochondrial Eve fiasco that was eventually cleared up. On the one hand you actually had people who jumped onto this to say that it was evidence that there was one mother of all of us, but it was only when the researchers realised they made some pitfalls and mistakes that that view was discredited.
 
You see nine, I wasn't being rude to him - not at all. It's just that for me to engage in any intelligent/logical/formal discussion with these people would require for them to "do a lot of work", and I am NOT here to do that for them. I cannot explain it further than that. If he really wants to know what I am referring to then perhaps he ought to go through the pain of understanding the physics and mathematics that I learnt (and am still learning) and all the high level books I'm going through slowing, unlike some I've been in the f*cking trenches (pardon my french), and maybe we can engage in an intelligible discussion. For the sake of completeness there are philosophical subtleties in the reasoning about DNA and it's implications, but this would also lead one to question the doctorine of science itself and we might end up talking about confidence intervals and probabilistic determinability - yuck. It's like mathematics when they talk about the Axiom of Choice, previous arguments for certain theorems used it, the strange thing was they did not realise they were using it, and on close inspection they realised what was going on.

new_trader,

you and I seem to agree, and you and I also agree that somehow people here just want to believe what they want to believe. Can't change that can we?



and they do this because their DNA is f*cked. And if you are imaginative enough you will realise that sometimes the body's defences can kill these cells off in certain cases. When it becomes a problem is when they become rampant and consume more resources for multiplication and growth, you now have a asymmetry in growth rates of these super growing cells with normal ones. And that asymmetry is the idea behind chemotherapy, where you are basically poisoning yourself in a controlled way, but because the super growing cells take more resources they will take up more poison and hence will die sooner than the others.

And no, intelligence is NOT a goal of nature. Likewise human beings are not "selected" to be happy, kind, compassionate, altruistic, etc. . . because that was never the selection pressure place on our species. Intelligence was an "accidental" by product of natural selection, just like the others I've mentioned.

Paul71,

There use to be this BS talk that we only use 12% of our brains and the rest laid dormant. Brain science is too complex for us to discuss here - and I wouldn't even dream of discussing it since none of us are qualified.

I find it rather silly and sad that we are just beginning to see how the mind works and yet there are some people seeing things into the result of experiments and thinking it give them "hope". It was the same with Mitochondrial Eve fiasco that was eventually cleared up. On the one hand you actually had people who jumped onto this to say that it was evidence that there was one mother of all of us, but it was only when the researchers realised they made some pitfalls and mistakes that that view was discredited.

Does trading require talent? Or does a person just have to be interested enough to succeed?
 
Does trading require talent? Or does a person just have to be interested enough to succeed?

It's not talent.

You just need

1. Discipline
2. The ability to learn and apply knowledge
3. A good memory and ability to absorb many facts and market information
4. Money
5. An interest in the markets


You can become a talented trader when you have mastered all of these skills - plus a few more I bet!!

Some say to be a footballer requires talent - Im 32 and play every weekend. I would still say I play football and am talented compared to others but there are certainly those better than me, Ronaldo?:LOL: I have an interest in football so have developed skills over the years, there was no pre-requested talent when I was a kid joining my first team.

To be the best trader you do need skill (WHICH ANYBODY CAN LEARN), not a natural talent - you need an interest. Natural skills can contribute, like a fast kid may make a good football player but there is no whole package that will guarantee success. There can be a foundation of skills one can build upon and get a head start.

It depends how you measure/define talent.

As the first poster said

WORK

JK
 
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You are right that brain cells can and will regenerate under certain circumstances. I agree on that part.


Logic might have nothing to do with it. But the brain will generate new cells and this has been proven almost a decade ago. 5 years ago scientist managed to prove that the new cells not only mature, but also become part of the existing neural network. This concept is called Neurogenesis: Neurogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adult neurogenesis is a recent example of a long-held scientific theory being overturned, with the phenomenon only recently being largely accepted by the scientific community.

There is much more to be found about this in the prominent scientific journals (Nature obviously), unfortunately it's not so easy (or allowed) to copy & paste this on a public forum. Which I why I provide you with the following links. The evidence is quite conclusive.

Salk Scientists Demonstrate For The First Time That Newly Born Brain Cells Are Functional In The Adult Brain

New Brain Cells Mature and Function



I never said there weren't limits. Will humans ever be able to run the 100m sprint in under 5 secs? Doubtfully. But as each generation passes, the average IQ of the population increases. (Although there's a lot to say about the classic IQ tests, but let's not go into that for now, because that's a different matter on it's now). I never said IQ mattered a whole lot, I'm just saying you shouldn't see humans as people that a born with fixed abilities, intelligence. If you have anything to substantiate these claims, I'll be happy to read it.

PS: I don't blame you for not being aware of the recent developments. But you shouldn't argue your case unless you have sufficient evidence. As you said yourself, they are largely based on "personal experience" (I wouldn't exactly count that as a scientific criterium). As for "billions of years of evolutionary evidence", I feel to understand what you mean. In fact, evolution serves to demonstrate that humans are not bound to limits. Or else we would all still be making fire with rocks and our bare hands.

As I see it, the main problem with this debate is that people are unwilling to accept the less glamorous alternative because it is far too uncomfortable.
I have read all about Neurogenesis, and the common denominator in all the articles I’ve read, including the articles you have cited is:

“Despite such work, scientists still did not know if these new cells actually worked like any other neuron, or even if they grew and matured like other brain cells.”

And

“Now Fred Gage has proved they do indeed mature and function. His next task is to find out what these new neurons actually do.”

It just seems that you are jumping to the conclusion that they add to intelligence, whereas I am saying it is inconclusive and unlikely. I have said that new brain cells simply may be replacing dead or damaged brain cells so they don’t actually add anything, especially not intelligence. At one time it was thought that brain cells were the only cells that didn’t regenerate.

So just for the record, I will restate my position. I am NOT saying absolutely and conclusively that brain cells don’t regenerate; I am saying that the brain does NOT add new brain cells in response to increased demand for cognitive functions.
I have quoted some online articles in what I have “written” below.
The cell is the structural and functional unit of all known living organisms. It is the smallest unit of an organism that is classified as living, and is sometimes called the building block of life. Now, if you believe in evolution as I do, you will accept that very early life on earth and the majority of life on earth today is comprised of single celled organisms. Vital functions of an organism occur within cells, and all cells contain the hereditary information necessary for regulating cell functions and for transmitting information to the next generation of cells. Each cell is at least somewhat self-contained and self-maintaining: it can take in nutrients, convert these nutrients into energy, carry out specialized functions, and reproduce as necessary. Each cell stores its own set of instructions for carrying out each of these activities.

So, would you agree that a cell does NOT require a brain to function and that it does not need to receive instructions from a brain to function? I think you would have to agree. A single celled organism can’t have a brain because there aren’t enough cells. One cell is all it is and it needs to do everything it can with it.

Moving up a few notches on the evolutionary scale you have simple multi celled organisms. Multi celled organism have evolved specialised cells which are cells designed to do a particular job in an organism. An example of this is the hydra which does not have a recognisable brain or true muscles. Nerve nets connect sensory photoreceptors and touch-sensitive nerve cells located in the body wall and tentacles. The stinging cells of a hydra are specialised and react to stimuli. They are not given instructions by a brain.

So, would you agree that organisms can live and evolve and develop specialised tasks without the need for a brain?

Moving up many notches on the evolutionary ladder are very complex organisms that not only contain multi cells that are specialised but they also contain specialised organs made up of specialised cells. An organ is a group of tissues that perform a specific function or group of functions. Biological tissue is a collection of interconnected cells that perform a similar function within an organism. Human organs include the heart, lungs, brain, eye, stomach, spleen, bones, pancreas, kidneys, liver, intestines, skin (the largest human organ), uterus, and bladder. Now, keep that point in mind, cells make up the tissue which makes up the organ and NOT the other way around.
So, back to the debate about increasing intelligence, remembering that cells make the tissue that make the organ, and the brain is an organ. I cannot understand how or by what process a brain, which is nothing more than an organ made up of Neurons which are electrically excitable cells in the nervous system that process and transmit information, can ‘decide’ to make more neurons on demand. Why don’t our eyes make more rods so that we can see better in the dark? Or better still, develop ultra violet or infra red sensitive cells! The eyes are an organ just like the brain.

The reason, as I see it, is simple. Intelligence isn’t necessarily a biological evolutionary advantage, it is simply the result of an excess of neurons. To say that intelligence can be increased is underestimating the power of the human brain as it stands. I remember watching a documentary where scientists created the concept of a brain index. This was basically a number which represented the amount of brain processing capacity required to maintain essential functions to keep an organism alive. A brain index of 1 means that an organism has just enough capacity to keep itself alive and nothing spare. A brain index of 2 means that it has twice as much as it needs and therefore has spare capacity to do other things. They estimated that human beings have a brain index of 7. Why would a brain that has 7 times the processing capacity required need to increase its intelligence further? Surely it would be far more beneficial to us as a species to get rid or a large proportion of the excess capacity and devote it to developing extra cells for fighting diseases instead of writing poetry and developing weapons of mass destruction. Do you now see why I think the notion of increasing intelligence is nothing but fanciful nonsense?

Your claim that average IQ increases with each generation is simply wrong. Biological changes occur slowly over geological time scales (not counting some micro-organisms that undergo rapid evolution). Ideas evolve rapidly but not our intelligence. If you took an average brain from a human who lived 1000 years ago and compared it to the average brain of someone today they would be identical.

Anyway, don’t take my word for it, now that you mention IQ, try this practical test yourself. Take an IQ test now, without any preparation and note your score. Then, buy/read/study all the books you can lay your hands on that show you how to boost your IQ. Go through all the practice questions and tests, noting your IQ score as you go. I will almost guarantee that by the 3rd IQ test your score will have peaked and you will not be able to increase it further. This will be your ‘true’ IQ.
 
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Your claim that average IQ increases with each generation is simply wrong. Biological changes occur slowly over geological time scales (not counting some micro-organisms that undergo rapid evolution). Ideas evolve but not our intelligence. If you took an average brain from a human who lived 1000 years ago and compared it to the average brain of someone today they would be identical.

I promise you a more in-depth reply later on. For now, I just like to state the above is plain wrong. Whatever you have been taught or think is correct, I'd like to see some evidence of it. It's good that you have a strong opinion about something, but it should be based on facts instead of beliefs. Research has shown that average IQ increases by three points every ten years. The increase of IQ from generation to generation is known as the Flynn-effect. This is why IQ tests are continuously being re-standardized (otherwise we might have people with IQ's of +300).

Flynn, J. R. (1984). The mean IQ of Americans: Massive gains 1932 to 1978. Psychological Bulletin, 95, 29-51.
Flynn, J. R. (1985). Wechsler intelligence tests: Do we really have a criterion of mental retardation? American Journal of Mental Deficiency, 90, 236-244.
Flynn, J. R. (1987). Massive IQ gains in 14 nations: What IQ tests really measure. Psychological Bulletin, 101,171-191.
Flynn, J. R. (1991). Asian Americans: Achievement beyond IQ. Hillsdale, NJ: Erlbaum.
Flynn, J. R. (1994). IQ gains over time. In R. J. Sternberg (Ed.), Encyclopedia of human intelligence (pp. 617-623). New York: Macmillan.
Flynn, J. R. (1999). Searching for justice: The discovery of IQ gains over time. American Psychologist, 54, 5-20.

I'll get back to you later. For now, I suggest you have a look at Flynn's research (cfr. supra) and either show me some evidence to the contrary or admit you are wrong in your beliefs.
 
As I see it, the main problem with this debate is that people are unwilling to accept the less glamorous alternative because it is far too uncomfortable.
I have read all about Neurogenesis, and the common denominator in all the articles I’ve read, including the articles you have cited is:

“Despite such work, scientists still did not know if these new cells actually worked like any other neuron, or even if they grew and matured like other brain cells.”

And

“Now Fred Gage has proved they do indeed mature and function. His next task is to find out what these new neurons actually do.”

It just seems that you are jumping to the conclusion that they add to intelligence, whereas I am saying it is inconclusive and unlikely. I have said that new brain cells simply may be replacing dead or damaged brain cells so they don’t actually add anything, especially not intelligence. At one time it was thought that brain cells were the only cells that didn’t regenerate.

So just for the record, I will restate my position. I am NOT saying absolutely and conclusively that brain cells don’t regenerate; I am saying that the brain does NOT add new brain cells in response to increased demand for cognitive functions.
I have quoted some online articles in what I have “written” below.
The cell is the structural and functional unit of all known living organisms. It is the smallest unit of an organism that is classified as living, and is sometimes called the building block of life. Now, if you believe in evolution as I do, you will accept that very early life on earth and the majority of life on earth today is comprised of single celled organisms. Vital functions of an organism occur within cells, and all cells contain the hereditary information necessary for regulating cell functions and for transmitting information to the next generation of cells. Each cell is at least somewhat self-contained and self-maintaining: it can take in nutrients, convert these nutrients into energy, carry out specialized functions, and reproduce as necessary. Each cell stores its own set of instructions for carrying out each of these activities.

So, would you agree that a cell does NOT require a brain to function and that it does not need to receive instructions from a brain to function? I think you would have to agree. A single celled organism can’t have a brain because there aren’t enough cells. One cell is all it is and it needs to do everything it can with it.

Moving up a few notches on the evolutionary scale you have simple multi celled organisms. Multi celled organism have evolved specialised cells which are cells designed to do a particular job in an organism. An example of this is the hydra which does not have a recognisable brain or true muscles. Nerve nets connect sensory photoreceptors and touch-sensitive nerve cells located in the body wall and tentacles. The stinging cells of a hydra are specialised and react to stimuli. They are not given instructions by a brain.

So, would you agree that organisms can live and evolve and develop specialised tasks without the need for a brain?

Moving up many notches on the evolutionary ladder are very complex organisms that not only contain multi cells that are specialised but they also contain specialised organs made up of specialised cells. An organ is a group of tissues that perform a specific function or group of functions. Biological tissue is a collection of interconnected cells that perform a similar function within an organism. Human organs include the heart, lungs, brain, eye, stomach, spleen, bones, pancreas, kidneys, liver, intestines, skin (the largest human organ), uterus, and bladder. Now, keep that point in mind, cells make up the tissue which makes up the organ and NOT the other way around.
So, back to the debate about increasing intelligence, remembering that cells make the tissue that make the organ, and the brain is an organ. I cannot understand how or by what process a brain, which is nothing more than an organ made up of Neurons which are electrically excitable cells in the nervous system that process and transmit information, can ‘decide’ to make more neurons on demand. Why don’t our eyes make more rods so that we can see better in the dark? Or better still, develop ultra violet or infra red sensitive cells! The eyes are an organ just like the brain.

The reason, as I see it, is simple. Intelligence isn’t necessarily a biological evolutionary advantage, it is simply the result of an excess of neurons. To say that intelligence can be increased is underestimating the power of the human brain as it stands. I remember watching a documentary where scientists created the concept of a brain index. This was basically a number which represented the amount of brain processing capacity required to maintain essential functions to keep an organism alive. A brain index of 1 means that an organism has just enough capacity to keep itself alive and nothing spare. A brain index of 2 means that it has twice as much as it needs and therefore has spare capacity to do other things. They estimated that human beings have a brain index of 7. Why would a brain that has 7 times the processing capacity required need to increase its intelligence further? Surely it would be far more beneficial to us as a species to get rid or a large proportion of the excess capacity and devote it to developing extra cells for fighting diseases instead of writing poetry and developing weapons of mass destruction. Do you now see why I think the notion of increasing intelligence is nothing but fanciful nonsense?

Your claim that average IQ increases with each generation is simply wrong. Biological changes occur slowly over geological time scales (not counting some micro-organisms that undergo rapid evolution). Ideas evolve rapidly but not our intelligence. If you took an average brain from a human who lived 1000 years ago and compared it to the average brain of someone today they would be identical.

Anyway, don’t take my word for it, now that you mention IQ, try this practical test yourself. Take an IQ test now, without any preparation and note your score. Then, buy/read/study all the books you can lay your hands on that show you how to boost your IQ. Go through all the practice questions and tests, noting your IQ score as you go. I will almost guarantee that by the 3rd IQ test your score will have peaked and you will not be able to increase it further. This will be your ‘true’ IQ.

I understand what you are saying.

What is memory?
 
Did Einstien, require memory, or ability? Where did he 'learn' his contributions?
 
Einstien had ability. We memorise Einstiens ability. Memory has nothing to do with ability, and even less, if you are not interested in the memory, or do not want to apply your ability to the memory.
 
I personally believe that IQ is an incredibly shoddy, imprecise and utterly crude measure of "intelligence", because it totally ignores the "background" of the person in question (sociological, psychological, physiological).

It's like studying animals in isolation to see how they fit into the whole picture of the eco system. It's like trawling a net the bottom of the ocean for lifeforms to study them, when instead we would gain better understanding if we took the expense to take a submarine down to observe.

new_trader said:
I cannot understand how or by what process a brain, which is nothing more than an organ made up of Neurons which are electrically excitable cells in the nervous system that process and transmit information, can ‘decide’ to make more neurons on demand

because some people want to believe what they want to believe, without having thought about it, done their homework, and reasoned properly to themselves. It's the same when this debate about "free will" came about. Some individuals see that the quantum mechanical view of the world allows for "free will". Newtonian mechanics and Einsteinian mechanics are totally deterministic and do no allow for any "free will", so some groups appealed to the quantum theory to give them their views. This is nothing more than wishful thinking, and the truth is the "free will" debate cannot be resolved by appealing to quantum mechanics. It's basically the case of give someone a glimmer of hope and they will delude themselves silly and cling on to it for dear life.

Paul71,

your questions are an examples of why Jesse Livermore would avoid most of his dinner guests, because they brain drilled him senseless with questions and he just couldn't be bothered anymore. . . .
 
You see nine, I wasn't being rude to him - not at all.
I would suggest any civilised adult learned in the art of human interaction, communication, etiquette and manners would see your responses, certainly in your last post directed at me, as being very rude.
temptrader said:
It's just that for me to engage in any intelligent/logical/formal discussion with these people would require for them to "do a lot of work", and I am NOT here to do that for them. I cannot explain it further than that. If he really wants to know what I am referring to then perhaps he ought to go through the pain of understanding the physics and mathematics that I learnt (and am still learning) and all the high level books I'm going through slowing, unlike some I've been in the f*cking trenches (pardon my french), and maybe we can engage in an intelligible discussion. For the sake of completeness there are philosophical subtleties in the reasoning about DNA and it's implications, but this would also lead one to question the doctorine of science itself and we might end up talking about confidence intervals and probabilistic determinability - yuck. It's like mathematics when they talk about the Axiom of Choice, previous arguments for certain theorems used it, the strange thing was they did not realise they were using it, and on close inspection they realised what was going on.
This sums up what is so wrong with your attitude.

You believe your knowledge is the only worthwhile knowledge on the subject. You believe anyone arguing a differing viewpoint and substantiating that viewpoint with differing knowledge to yours must be wrong. You even imply in the above paragraph that as their knowledge isn't the same as yours they must be uneducated on the subject.

The theory and experimentation in one area of science more often than not has profound impacts on other areas. You may know all there is to know on DNA and biology. You may get one of those Nobel Prizes you are so fond of. That does not mean your knowledge is the only valid knowledge or even the only relevant knowledge.

Maybe you need to do "alot of work" on some of the areas you are so obviously lacking in. Areas such as leading edge quantum physics. Once you have a little look outside your area of interest........at the great mass of knowledge commonly referred to as "that which you don't know you don't know" you might see where I am coming from.

It's great you have an understanding of DNA. It's great you have "done alot of work".

What is not so great is your attitude and demeanour towards others with a differing but equally valid viewpoint to you. You have been rude, you and I both know that. That is what I take exception to.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 
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