It goes from bad to worse. I can do 50 points a day (!) and at £100 a point thats cool. How come I'm not filty rich then? Correct, because I don't have £100K in my acount, so I have to make do with 1p a point.When I grow up, I'm going to try 2p a point and see if I still have the bottle. :cheesy:
Trader333
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ColinRiche,
I dont see what your problem is. I have stated on other boards that I think the course offered by JB for beginners is a good start and I have spoken to a couple of people who were very pleased with it. But I have also stated that claims of making £1k to £2K per month using £1 to £2 per point is very doubtful and should not be included in any literature.
It doesnt mean that the course is no good but that claims of what are achievable should be justified. I am usually one of the first to question anything I think needs to be clarified or looks suspicious. As a rule I try not to judge people but I do question certain motives or actions when I think they should be.
Paul
I dont see what your problem is. I have stated on other boards that I think the course offered by JB for beginners is a good start and I have spoken to a couple of people who were very pleased with it. But I have also stated that claims of making £1k to £2K per month using £1 to £2 per point is very doubtful and should not be included in any literature.
It doesnt mean that the course is no good but that claims of what are achievable should be justified. I am usually one of the first to question anything I think needs to be clarified or looks suspicious. As a rule I try not to judge people but I do question certain motives or actions when I think they should be.
Paul
My god ,
These courses get from bad to worse . I wouldn’t touch VS’s course with a 10 foot pole , never mind consider going on one .
As I said before , so called statements and stats can be very misleading . VS from his previous batch of statements ( 01 ? ) show that he has made some 20k plus within a couple of months .
can be VERY misleading for a few reasons :
1) what is his RISK CAPITAL ? from the size of the bets shown and applying the appropriate bet factors , one can work out roughly what this is , which then turned out by my estimates to be roughly about 20-25k . That gives an overall RISK : REWARD ratio of about 1 : 1 ( potential gain 25k , potential loss 25k ) , which really is lousy , it’s crap shoot odds , that case why not go to the casino . save yourself all the expense and bother of learning to trade.
2) time frame : yes , anyone can post their statements which show a few big lucky winners . BUT the true test is time, can you keep the same form over a couple of years ? can you even keep your winnings over a couple of years ? I doubt if VS has .
3) what about guarantees?, if he is so confident of his methods , then what has he to lose on a guarantee , since if you use his method , then you are " BOUND " to win . So it is a no LOSE situation, so why not a money back guarantee?
4) Taking 10 points per trade is a high risk proposition . with this method you will have to be trading like a maniac everyday , not my cup of tea. The most you could expect would be around 25 % a month and that’s a lot if you annualise it .
BUT that is the best case scenario, and the RISK : REWARD still remains unreasonably high , since even if you had 2 points stops , you will in the long run have more losing trades than you will winning ones , without the back up of BIG winners . Thus your R:R will average out to just over 1:1 , again it’s casino time .
And this is based on the track record of a pro trader friend of mine , and not the begginners that throng these courses .
5) For John B’s course , to make £1k a month on £2 a point stakes , you would need 5 x 100 point winners a month , over all your losing trades ! To me that is unbelievable to say the least.
6) If market tutors have nothing to do with VS , then why is the marketing jargon all the same ? something isn’t right.
Maybe it’s a general naivete about things financial , but people should ask the hard questions to these so called gurus , before parting with their cash .
If you go in blind don’t complain later on if you get that ripped off feeling.
These courses get from bad to worse . I wouldn’t touch VS’s course with a 10 foot pole , never mind consider going on one .
As I said before , so called statements and stats can be very misleading . VS from his previous batch of statements ( 01 ? ) show that he has made some 20k plus within a couple of months .
can be VERY misleading for a few reasons :
1) what is his RISK CAPITAL ? from the size of the bets shown and applying the appropriate bet factors , one can work out roughly what this is , which then turned out by my estimates to be roughly about 20-25k . That gives an overall RISK : REWARD ratio of about 1 : 1 ( potential gain 25k , potential loss 25k ) , which really is lousy , it’s crap shoot odds , that case why not go to the casino . save yourself all the expense and bother of learning to trade.
2) time frame : yes , anyone can post their statements which show a few big lucky winners . BUT the true test is time, can you keep the same form over a couple of years ? can you even keep your winnings over a couple of years ? I doubt if VS has .
3) what about guarantees?, if he is so confident of his methods , then what has he to lose on a guarantee , since if you use his method , then you are " BOUND " to win . So it is a no LOSE situation, so why not a money back guarantee?
4) Taking 10 points per trade is a high risk proposition . with this method you will have to be trading like a maniac everyday , not my cup of tea. The most you could expect would be around 25 % a month and that’s a lot if you annualise it .
BUT that is the best case scenario, and the RISK : REWARD still remains unreasonably high , since even if you had 2 points stops , you will in the long run have more losing trades than you will winning ones , without the back up of BIG winners . Thus your R:R will average out to just over 1:1 , again it’s casino time .
And this is based on the track record of a pro trader friend of mine , and not the begginners that throng these courses .
5) For John B’s course , to make £1k a month on £2 a point stakes , you would need 5 x 100 point winners a month , over all your losing trades ! To me that is unbelievable to say the least.
6) If market tutors have nothing to do with VS , then why is the marketing jargon all the same ? something isn’t right.
Maybe it’s a general naivete about things financial , but people should ask the hard questions to these so called gurus , before parting with their cash .
If you go in blind don’t complain later on if you get that ripped off feeling.
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I would suggest that the marketing jargon is all the same because ... it works. If you know a vendor who is pulling in naive punters willing to spend £2k+, then it makes sense to copy their copy because you know it works, tweak it slightly, personalise it, add the refund guarantee (because punters think this makes them safe), sit back and wait for the deluge of applicants.
There's nothing new in marketing copy; the vast majority of it is recycled.
There's nothing new in marketing copy; the vast majority of it is recycled.
CityTrader
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Surely the question to be asked why are these so called "geniuses of trading "teaching seminars from the back of beyond. If they were really that good, they'd be earning more working for Goldmans or Morgan Stanley - than almost anyome one on here makes in 5 years. OR they'd have established a hedge fund. Do a google search for Alan Howard ( I think) ex CSFB ex Sallie's trader now running a hedge fund to get an idea of the sort of sums' tops traders ( even in UK earn) I personally know a handfull of City traders earning OVER £2.5million a year as employees. And trust me, not one of these guys learnt their skills on a course. These skills can NOT be taught. If they could, as an ex-City trader of 25 years I would try to teach them myself.
I would have thought that at least , anyone would have the pride not to copy someone else's sales jargon - how difficult can it be produce your own ?!
well , I guess that about sums it up .
* Surely the question to be asked why are these so called "geniuses of trading "teaching seminars from the back of beyond. If they were really that good, they'd be earning more working for Goldmans or Morgan Stanley *
I disagree , investment banks , banks , brokerages are all middle men of one sort or another - their expertise is not in trading as principal - they do it of course but their % returns on capital are mediocore at best . They are not a scratch on hedgies and independant traders .
Most successfull traders have never been associated with banks - have a look at the market wizards series - reason being trading talent won't get you far in a bank and the like . They look more for grovelling to the boss talent . sorry but it's true .
In fact bank traders and the like make a lot of losses , only thing the media never publicises it coz they will never get hold of the hard evidence . I mean which bank is going to say they lost x 100 millions in prop. trading ??!
Sorry I have little respect for so called bank prop. traders - I know too many of them who have failed , and resorted to company politics to stay employed.
well , I guess that about sums it up .
* Surely the question to be asked why are these so called "geniuses of trading "teaching seminars from the back of beyond. If they were really that good, they'd be earning more working for Goldmans or Morgan Stanley *
I disagree , investment banks , banks , brokerages are all middle men of one sort or another - their expertise is not in trading as principal - they do it of course but their % returns on capital are mediocore at best . They are not a scratch on hedgies and independant traders .
Most successfull traders have never been associated with banks - have a look at the market wizards series - reason being trading talent won't get you far in a bank and the like . They look more for grovelling to the boss talent . sorry but it's true .
In fact bank traders and the like make a lot of losses , only thing the media never publicises it coz they will never get hold of the hard evidence . I mean which bank is going to say they lost x 100 millions in prop. trading ??!
Sorry I have little respect for so called bank prop. traders - I know too many of them who have failed , and resorted to company politics to stay employed.
Hello everyone
I'm a very new member of the board and this is the first post I've ever done (on any board!)
I was on the verge of trying either a VS seminar or getting the set of video tapes advertised on the Manhattan Direct website - both in the £2000+ bracket.
Now, thanks to this site and the many links to other sites, I have so much information my brain is on the verge of melting!!
By deciding not to get into the VS seminar or videos my trading fund is up over £2000!!! I am aiming, within the next couple of months, to get my initial fund up to £15000 and will spend that time trying to learn more.
I have dabbled with SB in the past but as I was undercapitalised, and not knowledgeable enough, lost a few hundred - good learning curve though.
I remember thinking at the time, what was to stop a SB firm taking their price, just for a few seconds, down to my stop loss to collect their money. I thought I was being paranoid - but some posts have made me realise that it happens every day.
Thanks to everybody for the interesting posts, even though some are sounding like Greek to me at present!
Roger
I'm a very new member of the board and this is the first post I've ever done (on any board!)
I was on the verge of trying either a VS seminar or getting the set of video tapes advertised on the Manhattan Direct website - both in the £2000+ bracket.
Now, thanks to this site and the many links to other sites, I have so much information my brain is on the verge of melting!!
By deciding not to get into the VS seminar or videos my trading fund is up over £2000!!! I am aiming, within the next couple of months, to get my initial fund up to £15000 and will spend that time trying to learn more.
I have dabbled with SB in the past but as I was undercapitalised, and not knowledgeable enough, lost a few hundred - good learning curve though.
I remember thinking at the time, what was to stop a SB firm taking their price, just for a few seconds, down to my stop loss to collect their money. I thought I was being paranoid - but some posts have made me realise that it happens every day.
Thanks to everybody for the interesting posts, even though some are sounding like Greek to me at present!
Roger
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Welcome to T2W 
Nice post - but don't be in too much of a rush to bring your capital up to £15K; £2K is perfectly adequate.
Read up on position sizing and money management - ie, never ever risk more than 1% of your pot on any one trade. So you just alter your bet size (if using SB) to fit your money management rules.
I would suggest using your £2K, and try building it up very slowly. If you can do that consistently and be net positive (ie after commissions/spreads, software costs, etc) after six months, then that would be the time to increase your pot a little. But do keep the rest tucked away in a building society, just in case.
Remember that 90% lose overall, so please don't think you'll be the exception to the rule - that comes with practice, sound money management, and your ability to conquer your ego.
And then if it all goes pear-shaped for you, you'll be thankful that you've only lost £2K and not the whole £15K.
Nice post - but don't be in too much of a rush to bring your capital up to £15K; £2K is perfectly adequate.
Read up on position sizing and money management - ie, never ever risk more than 1% of your pot on any one trade. So you just alter your bet size (if using SB) to fit your money management rules.
I would suggest using your £2K, and try building it up very slowly. If you can do that consistently and be net positive (ie after commissions/spreads, software costs, etc) after six months, then that would be the time to increase your pot a little. But do keep the rest tucked away in a building society, just in case.
Remember that 90% lose overall, so please don't think you'll be the exception to the rule - that comes with practice, sound money management, and your ability to conquer your ego.
And then if it all goes pear-shaped for you, you'll be thankful that you've only lost £2K and not the whole £15K.
CityTrader
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mma I disagree. The reason that the market wizard series only promotoes individual traders, is perhaps that they are the only one allowed the publicity? How amny banks who allow their start traders a platform like that?
Like I said do a search on Alan Howard. . I can name half a dozen other excellent traders without even trying to think too hard, who ALL work/worked for banks. ( Darryn Soards, Charlie Huw-Williams, etc, etc)
Like I said do a search on Alan Howard. . I can name half a dozen other excellent traders without even trying to think too hard, who ALL work/worked for banks. ( Darryn Soards, Charlie Huw-Williams, etc, etc)
wayno ,
this is starting to be what I call a repeat conversation .
I say I disagree , then you just copy me - not really going anywhere is it ?
You clearly are not very familiar with the Wizards because you are wrong on a number of points :
1) The MW series does have 1 bank trader - bill lipshultz , ex Salamons , but he was the only one coz the other bank traders couldn't cut the mark .
2) the Wizs started on very SMALL capital , some even on a couple of thousand $ , these pompous banks start their " traders " on tons more than that . that is for sure
3) Darryn Soards, Charlie Huw-Williams - errr WHO ???
4) And No don't ask me to do a search , coz I'm really not that bothered .
5) Some people have a lot of Glamour fantasies about associating with banks and the like, and feel threatened when the fact that the MWs have and will always beat so called bank traders hands down .
That is why they keep defending bank traders no matter what , least their own illusions will be shattered - I hope you are not one of these .
6) I'm not here to change your mind , and I certainly won't change mine . As a current prop.trader for an institution ( non bank of course ), I think I'm entitled to an opinion .
this is starting to be what I call a repeat conversation .
I say I disagree , then you just copy me - not really going anywhere is it ?
You clearly are not very familiar with the Wizards because you are wrong on a number of points :
1) The MW series does have 1 bank trader - bill lipshultz , ex Salamons , but he was the only one coz the other bank traders couldn't cut the mark .
2) the Wizs started on very SMALL capital , some even on a couple of thousand $ , these pompous banks start their " traders " on tons more than that . that is for sure
3) Darryn Soards, Charlie Huw-Williams - errr WHO ???
4) And No don't ask me to do a search , coz I'm really not that bothered .
5) Some people have a lot of Glamour fantasies about associating with banks and the like, and feel threatened when the fact that the MWs have and will always beat so called bank traders hands down .
That is why they keep defending bank traders no matter what , least their own illusions will be shattered - I hope you are not one of these .
6) I'm not here to change your mind , and I certainly won't change mine . As a current prop.trader for an institution ( non bank of course ), I think I'm entitled to an opinion .
CityTrader
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Personally, I would have thought it easier to do a search and try to find out something, than type 15 odd lines, BUT since you can't be bothered, I did a search for you..
http://www.csfb.com/news/html/2001/february_13_2001.shtml
If you want some more enlightement.. try Ian Wace ( Ex Warburgs, Ex Deutsche Bank) http://www.thisismoney.com/20030714/nm65409.html
I've worked as a trader for investment banks for last 17 years. I do not have any glamour fantasies. ( nor any wannabe investment banker fantasies...)
http://www.csfb.com/news/html/2001/february_13_2001.shtml
If you want some more enlightement.. try Ian Wace ( Ex Warburgs, Ex Deutsche Bank) http://www.thisismoney.com/20030714/nm65409.html
I've worked as a trader for investment banks for last 17 years. I do not have any glamour fantasies. ( nor any wannabe investment banker fantasies...)
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From a beginners point of view people offer courses for one thing only( to make money! its not a bad thing, and no offence to people who do it). Im just supprised nobody has come up with a premium rate phone line version yet, give them a ring at 9.30 pm and they will tell you where the Dow is going the next day. Cheers, Peedee.
rossored
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Hey, thats actually not a bad idea PD : maybe a few of us could club together, get several views of where the markets are going, amalgamate them all into one and offer it out at £2/min? By the time you'd got through the various jargon, indemnities and the like, you'd be up to at least a tenner a call... It still wouldnt make any sense, but each to their own.
From the sounds of it, wayno and mma could certainly offer conflicting views, I'd chip in with a bit of essential sarcasm, we'll get Sunseeker, Chartman, Mr.Charts and all the mods involved, and by the time you've listened to the whole recording each night, we'd all make a killing.
So, who's going to mention it first? You can have global rights to it PD, as it was your idea, but I want a cut for my marketing input, okay?
It still wouldnt make any sense, but each to their own.From the sounds of it, wayno and mma could certainly offer conflicting views, I'd chip in with a bit of essential sarcasm, we'll get Sunseeker, Chartman, Mr.Charts and all the mods involved, and by the time you've listened to the whole recording each night, we'd all make a killing.
So, who's going to mention it first? You can have global rights to it PD, as it was your idea, but I want a cut for my marketing input, okay?
neil
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Money Machine
Great idea:
Lets improve upon it Rossored.
Lets alternate reply tapes so that caller number one gets a "Buy" call and caller number two gets a "Sell" call etc, etc.
And publish winning trades and print the testimonials.
You're a genius Peedee
Great idea:
Lets improve upon it Rossored.
Lets alternate reply tapes so that caller number one gets a "Buy" call and caller number two gets a "Sell" call etc, etc.
And publish winning trades and print the testimonials.
You're a genius Peedee
Trader333
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I am pretty sure that you would have to be FSA registered to offer investment advice on the direction of the Dow. Interestingly enough the same does not apply to horseracing tipsters and I have never understood why ? So a way round it maybe be to say that you are recommending a horse called Dowboy to win in the 3.30 New York Stakes. The win would be the expected up movement and 3.30pm the time you expect the up move to start.
Paul
Paul
smileypete
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* Personally, I would have thought it easier to do a search and try to find out something, than type 15 odd lines, BUT since you can't be bothered, I did a search for you.. *
nah , writing my own stuff is much better than searching for some 2rd rate bank trader.
And no matter how many posts you make , it won't change the fact that out of 20 + market wizards , there is only 1 bank trader.
Oh , and speaking of links , here's one :
www.iasg.com . choose the 3rd line , specify - profitability ratio & record since tha start of trading - and hey presto !
Out of the top 30 funds shown ONLY 1 belongs to a bank , so much for the theory that banks are anything other than mediocore traders.
in the real trading world , results count , in the banking world , politics count and so does sticking one's head in the sand to avoid the shame of reality .
nah , writing my own stuff is much better than searching for some 2rd rate bank trader.
And no matter how many posts you make , it won't change the fact that out of 20 + market wizards , there is only 1 bank trader.
Oh , and speaking of links , here's one :
www.iasg.com . choose the 3rd line , specify - profitability ratio & record since tha start of trading - and hey presto !
Out of the top 30 funds shown ONLY 1 belongs to a bank , so much for the theory that banks are anything other than mediocore traders.
in the real trading world , results count , in the banking world , politics count and so does sticking one's head in the sand to avoid the shame of reality .
