DEMOCRACY - Is it over ?

[barjon]

Democracy is all about the will of the people taking priority.
It used to be the will of the King. Then Parliament rebelled successfully in the Civil War.
And now THE People have the ultimate say in what's what in this country.

Some of the losers just can't accept this. They think they know better.
So the rest of us have to put up with their whining and wingeing. Some are even demanding another referendum ! And probably another and another until they get the result they want.
Go cry in yer pillows losers and get over it.

NO! Pat. As I said earlier the people do NOT have the ultimate say, but they do have the power to chose those who do and to remove them if they don’t like how they perform.

It is also the right of ALL the people to express their view, not just the “winners”. It would not be democratic if they were denied. Similarly, just like the opposition in Parliament, it is right the “winning” view is challenged and alternatives offered.

Some of the winners just can’t accept this. They think they know better and seek to silence objectors. So the rest of us have to put up with their whining and whingeing. Some are even demanding that the people have no further say in the matter. Go cry in your pillows winners and get over it.

 

[NVP]

Rubbish.

Your comprehension of democracy is well and truly naff and OT. You are another tyrant in the making.

Reason why there is no majority in parliament is precisely because it represents the split vote of the people in reality.


Don't forget after the referendum an election was held. MPs should be allowed to their work.

I think the way Eurosceptics and Brexiteers are conducting themselves, is bordering on contempt of parliament and criminal activity.

If not for Parliament or Gina Miller these Eurosceptic hooligans would abuse our democracy to ignore half the will of the people and do whatever they choose.

You need to respect our institutions and Parliament which people have died for.

The problem is the democratic process in parliament (not the democratic intentions) has been exposed as a painfully slow and ineffectual process that is driving us over the edge towards a no deal exit.....

Teresa Mays "expert(?)" and unencumbered manipulation of the parliamentary "democratic" processes in the last 3 years has allowed her to get us to a no win Brexit finish line despite the obvious opposition of parliament to her negociated deal on the table..........

parliament have repeatedly said that NO DEAL is an option we must not take..........but here we are heading full steam towards that disastrous outcome.....no one wants NO DEAL .....even the brexiteers see the folly and recllessness in that ....well the informed ones do....I hope (?)

I really hope we can figure this out and the democratic process finally work towards generating a positive outcome

otherwise my already rock bottom respect and belief in the UK democratic system will fall even lower than it is now .....

N

 

[NVP]

NO! Pat. As I said earlier the people do NOT have the ultimate say, but they do have the power to chose those who do and to remove them if they don’t like how they perform.

It is also the right of ALL the people to express their view, not just the “winners”. It would not be democratic if they were denied. Similarly, just like the opposition in Parliament, it is right the “winning” view is challenged and alternatives offered.

Some of the winners just can’t accept this. They think they know better and seek to silence objectors. So the rest of us have to put up with their whining and whingeing. Some are even demanding that the people have no further say in the matter. Go cry in your pillows winners and get over it.

the sad thing is that this Brexit debate will never go away regardless of the final outcome .......48% (or more now) of the british public will ALWAYS feel this was the wrong decision and it will be detrimental to the UK for generations to come ....it will also re-shape British politics in the next election........

never the same again
N

 

[Signalcalc]

Do I really have to remind people on this thread the choice that was provided by Cameron? It seems pretty clear to me when he set his stall out - an in/out referendum, no fudge at that stage, the people were to vote, the people were to decide, the result was to be implemented, the biggest vote in UK history as it turns out, he stated that he was a remainer and would wish us to stay in, he lied about trying his best to implement the result as he just quit.

When a prime minister makes official statements such as this and all the statements made by TM since, people listen, we listened, we voted, it's been clear all along what the result was and still is, those who think democracy is alive when the leader(s) of your country betray their own words are sadly living in some medieval dictatorship and need to get their ideas about democracy re-examined.

 

[Pat494]

The majority decided the referendum. Not just the old.
Is it not the duty of the politicians to carry out this decision in the best way possible >
There are always the minority of liberal anarchists that can't accept any authority. Maybe they help keep freedoms alive.
But they are a pain in the butt to getting anything done even after the decision has been made.
Do we not want the best position for Britain in particular, while wishing Europe would reform itself. So far it has shown no tendency or capability of reform ?
The EU is held together thanks to the big 3 contributors. Namely Britain, France and Germany. For how long can France and Germany bear the burden alone ? They will crack under the strain and it won't be a pretty sight. Already there are political movements within France nd Germany fed up with paying for the other 24. As with most " Empires " of the past they have over extended themselves and will collapse. They pretend they are not worried. Well they should be.

 

[NVP]

Do I really have to remind people on this thread the choice that was provided by Cameron? It seems pretty clear to me when he set his stall out - an in/out referendum, no fudge at that stage, the people were to vote, the people were to decide, the result was to be implemented, the biggest vote in UK history as it turns out, he stated that he was a remainer and would wish us to stay in, he lied about trying his best to implement the result as he just quit.

When a prime minister makes official statements such as this and all the statements made by TM since, people listen, we listened, we voted, it's been clear all along what the result was and still is, those who think democracy is alive when the leader(s) of your country betray their own words are sadly living in some medieval dictatorship and need to get their ideas about democracy re-examined.

Hate to get into this again but the vote was a very organised and communicated process by the politicians at that time....

I genuinely would have accepted the leave decision had it been more significant ....but it was rediculously close

yeah yeah sour grapes they all cry

if only we had placed a caveat in that a secondary vote would be required by the people to sanction the final exit deal agreed we would not be in this mess now.........Christ even if they had put something in where this was mandatory if the margin of victory by the leavers was not sufficient to mandate a compulsory exit .........that would have been something

we have to break this deadlock somehow ......parliament is going to implode before they get there

the only organisations and corporations i know still around that make such dumbass, critical and fundamental errors with process and decision making ....is this bloody current parliament ....everyone else has perished or only survived by urgently replacing the poor managers that created such shoddy decision making processes

as a politician put it succinctly in a recent interview

the Brexit votes (now) for me continually keep asking do i want my right or left arm cut off.............frankly i would prefer neither to be the option..........

N

 

[NVP]

The majority decided the referendum. Not just the old.
Is it not the duty of the politicians to carry out this decision in the best way possible >
There are always the minority of liberal anarchists that can't accept any authority. Maybe they help keep freedoms alive.
But they are a pain in the butt to getting anything done even after the decision has been made.
Do we not want the best position for Britain in particular, while wishing Europe would reform itself. So far it has shown no tendency or capability of reform ?
The EU is held together thanks to the big 3 contributors. Namely Britain, France and Germany. For how long can France and Germany bear the burden alone ? They will crack under the strain and it won't be a pretty sight. Already there are political movements within France nd Germany fed up with paying for the other 24. As with most " Empires " of the past they have over extended themselves and will collapse. They pretend they are not worried. Well they should be.

majority ......1% of voters changing their ballot decision (or indeed allowing in many of the enforced "abstaining" voters that were blocked from voting by mysterious admin issues)...........would have been required to swing it the other way ......

sorry ......thats not a majority Pat ...thats a rounding error .....

 

[NVP]

Do I really have to remind people on this thread the choice that was provided by Cameron?

absolutely right sig...........but his hands were tied ..........again he was against the wall with other parties all using it as a promise to gain votes.......

 

[new_trader]

Is Democracy over? I can only hope!

This video explains quite simply why the countries that embrace democracy eventually turn into shìt.

Why Socrates Hated Democracy

 

[Pat494]

Democracy has its downside e.g. the Brexit shambles but even so is generally prefered by the " man in the street " to some horrible dictatorship, I would think. Dictators have usually tried to con the people with the efficiency argument but the facts point otherwise.
They are a mean, greedy, lot so far and use the tactics of murder and intimidation to get into power. Once in they are hard to oust.

 

[Pat494]

The people have to guard against believing extravagant promises. The Germans were nearly all fooled by Hitler's lies in 1932.
Wasn't it a strange coincidence that Napoleon was similar to Hitler in being a corporal and a foreigner ? Both promised a land of milk and honey and delivered death and destruction to themselves and their adopted country.

 

[Pat494]

The political BS machine will be working overtime with the hollow promises of the Tory contenders.

 

[NVP]

in truth due to the complete split in the country ....im not sure where we go next .....and neither do the conservatives or labour ................jees they are in dissarray .....like 2 dinosaurs as the ice age bites ..........seriously if a GE is called then farages brexit party might actually bloody win it ......at least getting in the mix for a coalition anyway

equally a full blooded remain party would emerge ......otherwise Lib Dems will do instead

more twisty turns than a twisty turny thing ...........

N

 

[NVP]

whilst we do indeed sit in the biggest dilemma / dispute for parliament in many many decades I am reminded of what democracy means and the temporary inconveniences that this causes

however the alternatives are dark and evil ...........

N

 

[NVP]

The political BS machine will be working overtime with the hollow promises of the Tory contenders.

well so far its been hilarious .....every morning BBC news interviews the next "apprentice" and asks a straight question about brexit ...........so far no one will answer it fully ......pile of woosers

and Boris is going on trial for lying in the brexit campaign ?

Christ they wont have enough seats in the old bailey if they all got properly hauled up for political lies spun every day

N

 

[new_trader]

however the alternatives are dark and evil ...........

N

Name them.

 

[Pat494]

Maybe the mayhem in the Westminster bubble is trying to tell us something.
And what might that be you may well ask ?
The centre parties haven't the coordination or ability to act as one group.
Every MP seems to think their policies should be followed by the rest.
But this is just not so. is it ?
Discipline ( party whips ) once feared and obeyed are just a joke now.
Could the successful Chinese system perhaps be trying to show how to do it ?
A very dark day imho. but maybe nipping complete anarchy in the bud before it gets worse.

The Tory contenders should abandon their comfy leafy suburbs and find out what people want.
Q. What has finally gone in June ?
A. May

 

[0007]

As usual, Starkey puts his finger on it!

Brexit REVOLUTION: David Starkey's BRILLIANT point about deadlock

BREXIT PARTY leader Nigel Farage told Britons to “prepare for a revolution” on Sunday night and, according to leading historian David Starkey, the UK might indeed be ready for a “revolution” for the first time in its history as Parliament has unprecedentedly reversed the notion of representation.

www.express.co.uk

 

[0007]

Theresa May also bears a large amount of responsibility for the breakdown of democracy in the UK. A damning assessment here: https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/weve-never-had-a-worse-tory-pm/

 

[Signalcalc]

Theresa May also bears a large amount of responsibility for the breakdown of democracy in the UK. A damning assessment here: https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/weve-never-had-a-worse-tory-pm/

Really all she succeeded in doing was to delay Brexit so that the integrated EU Defence Union project could keep integrating, she has served her purpose working for the EU very well, which is why the EU congratulate her and like her so much, I expect we'll see her taking a role in the EU once she has had a break. The most short lived, traitorous betrayer of the British people we have ever seen!

It hasn't ended though, even if we leave the EU under Brexit, the integrated EU command and control structures remain, the next job will be to regain sovereign control of our armed forces, only then could we say we are a sovereign nation again.