Deal4free / CMC

Stop Entry + Stop Loss using D4F

Hi

GBP is currently trading @ 26/29 and I would like to place a (buy) stop entry order @ 60 and a stop loss @ 35, then logoff and forget about it for a while.

On FXCM I can do this no problem: entry, stop, limit, trailing stop, etc. but I can't see how to do this with D4F (2 entry orders would result in the stop being executed first @ 30 and the OCO option wouldn't seem to fit either).

Any ideas?

If it's not possible, doesn't this seem like a bit of an oversight?

Or maybe there's a good reason?

Thanks in advance,
Steve
 
It can't be done with d4f but it will shortly be possible to do so with CapitalSpreads, or so they say.
What you are wanting to do is called an "if done" or "contingent" order i.e. if the market moves up to xxx then the entry buy stop is actioned and the associated stop loss order is put on at the same time.
Ages ago, when I asked d4f about this facility (twice) they gave me a **** and bull story about such orders not being allowed by the FSA!!!
All SB companies should take note. Contingent orders are a facility required by spreadbetters. Those SB companies who, in 3 months time, fail to offer such orders will see their customers migrating to the companies who do.
 
Orion

When you get time do you think you can spell out, in simple terms how a contingent order works.
 
Kevin546

Contingent Orders

Apologies for not replying much sooner but I have only today, 14/10/04, noticed your post and request for an explanation.

An “if done” or “linked” or “contingent” order (pick your own term) is a stop order which is put in place automatically if, and only if, another associated stop order with which it is linked is triggered. You submit both parts at the same time to your broker or SB company. Here’s an example.

I think the FTSE is going to rally. It closed last night at 4600 and I want to enter long at, say, 4625. On all my trades let’s say I operate with an emergency stop loss of 50 points to protect me in case the market suddenly turns around and plummets. But I’m going out to play golf today and won’t be around to place the order if the market does indeed rise to 4625. I therefore submit an “entry buy stop” order at the level of 4625 which will stop me in automatically if 4625 is hit. I now go off to golf and unbeknown to me my entry stop order is hit. I’m now in the market. The problem is that I’m on the 14th green, am not aware of what has happened, and cannot put in place my initial stop loss order. I therefore have a naked, open position with no protection, which is very dangerous.

Now along comes the contingent order. This is a “combined” order which says “please stop me in long at 4625 if the market hits that level and, if it does, please also put in an emergency exit sell stop order at 4575. However, if it doesn’t hit 4625, don’t put in place the 4575 part”.

You can also have a “one cancels the other” (OCO) contingent order. In the above example let’s say that my exit stop stays at 50 below the entry level but I want to take my profits and close out the position if the market rises to 4725, a 100 point gain. The OCO element is a limit sell order at 4725 (the profit exit) and a sell stop order at 4575 (the stop loss exit). If one side of this OCO is executed it will automatically cancel the other stop. In this case you would submit the contingent order with three elements: 1. The entry stop at 4625. 2. The limit sell order at 4725.
3. The stop loss sell order at 4575. Orders 2. and 3. will not be put in place unless order 1. has been triggered. They are contingent upon, or depend on, order 1.

I think you can see just how useful contingent orders can be, especially if, like me, you are a swing/position trader who does not care to be stuck in front of a screen all day.

I hope this helps. If you have any further queries, please PM me.
 
Orion

Thank you for a clear explanation what a good order and one that should be more widely available.

Regards

Kevin
 
jtrader,

You've probably worked it out, 2pt spread in FTSE business hours and 4pt spread at all other times.
 
Thanks emasiello -

I did realise that - hence the deletion! :cheesy:

Cheers

jtrader.
 
I had a guy who called me,saying how margin worked with DFF,He placed a 5 pound a point bet on the Dow margin cost 100 x you satke, so it cost him 500 pounds,he had 530 pounds in his account,he told me he placed a stop 50 points away,if he got stoped out he would set to lose 250 quid,

The Dow pulled back 30 points but his stop was safe, The Dow went in his favour he was now making 130 points profit over 2 days, so he decided to move his stop 50 points away from the current price, He asked DFF,Could I move my stop please, DFF replied you have been closed out,

Trader x said no My stop was not hit.DFF replied, Your did not have enough margin. Trader x replied, yes I did I had 530 quid in the account just before I placed my long trade. The market only went down 30 ticks from my entry. and this would have only used up 100 quid, of my margin. I had 530 quid in my account on placing my 5 pound a point dow bet,DFF replied, Yes sir but you need 500 pounds just to open the position, if the market goes in to your margin we will close you out. Trader x replied, so you 100 x you stake don't mean s,,.t,

Trader x went on to say other S/P company's would not have done this. As i know from experience Fin spreads for one, It cost 250 x you stake to trade with them, but if i only had 530 quid in the account and used a 50 point stop i would only have used up 250 margin and they would have taken the trade of me although they margin is high at 250 x you stake.DFF replied that our rules sir.Trader x. slams the phone down and closes his account.

So the story goes, beware about DFF margin.
 
The missing link

The bit that is missing below is the combination of ifdone and OCO.

To use your example i put on a limit buy on the FTSE at 4625, it gets filled but what i really want is to sell at 4750 (profit target) or Stop at 4550. his can be done with an OCO ONCE the position is open but not combined with the ifdone order.

So the most you can do is put a stop on automatically when your initial buy order is hit.

I' love to hear if this is actually possible with D4F but i have asked them and they say not.

PS I am using a CFD / FX account not SB.



Orion said:
Kevin546

Contingent Orders

Apologies for not replying much sooner but I have only today, 14/10/04, noticed your post and request for an explanation.

An “if done” or “linked” or “contingent” order (pick your own term) is a stop order which is put in place automatically if, and only if, another associated stop order with which it is linked is triggered. You submit both parts at the same time to your broker or SB company. Here’s an example.

I think the FTSE is going to rally. It closed last night at 4600 and I want to enter long at, say, 4625. On all my trades let’s say I operate with an emergency stop loss of 50 points to protect me in case the market suddenly turns around and plummets. But I’m going out to play golf today and won’t be around to place the order if the market does indeed rise to 4625. I therefore submit an “entry buy stop” order at the level of 4625 which will stop me in automatically if 4625 is hit. I now go off to golf and unbeknown to me my entry stop order is hit. I’m now in the market. The problem is that I’m on the 14th green, am not aware of what has happened, and cannot put in place my initial stop loss order. I therefore have a naked, open position with no protection, which is very dangerous.

Now along comes the contingent order. This is a “combined” order which says “please stop me in long at 4625 if the market hits that level and, if it does, please also put in an emergency exit sell stop order at 4575. However, if it doesn’t hit 4625, don’t put in place the 4575 part”.

You can also have a “one cancels the other” (OCO) contingent order. In the above example let’s say that my exit stop stays at 50 below the entry level but I want to take my profits and close out the position if the market rises to 4725, a 100 point gain. The OCO element is a limit sell order at 4725 (the profit exit) and a sell stop order at 4575 (the stop loss exit). If one side of this OCO is executed it will automatically cancel the other stop. In this case you would submit the contingent order with three elements: 1. The entry stop at 4625. 2. The limit sell order at 4725.
3. The stop loss sell order at 4575. Orders 2. and 3. will not be put in place unless order 1. has been triggered. They are contingent upon, or depend on, order 1.

I think you can see just how useful contingent orders can be, especially if, like me, you are a swing/position trader who does not care to be stuck in front of a screen all day.

I hope this helps. If you have any further queries, please PM me.
 
Something else you need to be aware of with d4f, is that if there is a spike in the price, your stop can be taken out. Say ftse is at 4787/9, you have a stop loss at 4740. There is spike in the price and it goes down for a moment past 4740 and back to 4787/9, that stop at 4740 could be activated, causing a lose of 59 points.
 
Yes but that is the point of a stop loss order, it triggers once your selected price trades......
 
PS For all their faults (although they are a bit better now i believe) D4F suites my kind of trading very well.

i.e. testing mechanical systems trading with smaller amounts initially as a next stage paper trading exercise. Basically i am putting in a number of limit orders then they execute or not depending on the price that day, so far it has been working pretty well.

Once the position size increases then someone like IB becomes better as the costs then become lower even after commisions.
 
Saxo: reputation versus reality

ajgriff said:
I posted a request for information about trading CFDs with Saxo Bank but unfortunately there have been no responses. Maybe nobody does! In which case I'd love to know why not. My reasons for favouring Saxo for CFDs, having researched many others, are as follows:

1. The spread is fixed at 0.1% either side of market, which is more than some but rather less than GNI, for example.

2. Saxo is not acting as a market maker and has nothing to gain from my success or failure.

3. The platform (demo) seems solid and reliable with useful support information.

4. Saxo has a good reputation with regard to forex.

5. The people are pleasant and helpful.

Any thoughts or comments from more experienced site members would be appreciated, before I take the plunge.

Many thanks.


See my posts elsewhere on the board for the truth about Saxo.
 
I noticed this morning that Deal4Free had a 'spike' in their trade prices at 10.11am in which all the prices rose by around 20 points. It lasted for 3 minutes and then all the prices returned to where they had been before. The last one like this was on 6th January, when the prices spiked downwards. It happened on all the UK shares I was watching, but not on the indices.

Has anyone else using Deal4Free noticed this? And is their an explantion for this?

I was watching the markets on another site and this didn't register any 'spike' in prices.

Being cynical I would say that they were trying to close people out by hitting 'stops', but as I was watching and not dealing at the time it didn't affect me.

Jill
 
This is because of the intraday auction that now takes place at 10:10 on option expiry days. There used to be an article on the LSE web site about this but I can't find it now. I believe it is supposed to end at 10:15 but there was something about how it could go on longer in some circumstances - I forget the details.

KenN
 
JillyB said:
I noticed this morning that Deal4Free had a 'spike' in their trade prices at 10.11am in which all the prices rose by around 20 points. It lasted for 3 minutes and then all the prices returned to where they had been before. The last one like this was on 6th January, when the prices spiked downwards. It happened on all the UK shares I was watching, but not on the indices.

Has anyone else using Deal4Free noticed this? And is their an explantion for this?

I was watching the markets on another site and this didn't register any 'spike' in prices.

Being cynical I would say that they were trying to close people out by hitting 'stops', but as I was watching and not dealing at the time it didn't affect me.

Jill
I've seen this happen too many times with D4F. Personally, I only place stops when I have a decent profit. That way, there is less likelihood of being 'spiked out'. I never place stops with them for any intra-day trades. Not ideal, but necessary, I have found.

For all this, I doubt they would engineer spikes. The bad publicity they would receive would put them out of business. Also, with over 90% of Joe Public losing money, they really don't need to play too many dirty tricks.
 
Hi Knorrie

Thanks for the info. I found a site on the London Stock Exchange that gives details about the intraday auction. The link is

www.londonstockexchange.com/NR/rdon...9C0E-D6FB6290F91D/0/EDSPtestguidev6100904.doc

if you're interested. This states that the auction takes place between 10.10 and 10.15 but can go on until 10.28 -10.31.

Well, you learn something new every day! I shall be ever watchful at 10.15 now and not go into sheer panic mode if I see this happen again.
Thanks again

Jill
 
JillyB said:
I noticed this morning that Deal4Free had a 'spike' in their trade prices at 10.11am in which all the prices rose by around 20 points. It lasted for 3 minutes and then all the prices returned to where they had been before. The last one like this was on 6th January, when the prices spiked downwards. It happened on all the UK shares I was watching, but not on the indices.

Has anyone else using Deal4Free noticed this? And is their an explantion for this?

I was watching the markets on another site and this didn't register any 'spike' in prices.

Being cynical I would say that they were trying to close people out by hitting 'stops', but as I was watching and not dealing at the time it didn't affect me.

Jill

Hi JillyB,

I saw the spike this morning and it sure spooked me as I had quite a few open trades at the time.!!

However, the good news is that although several of my stops were theoretically hit, none of them was actually executed.

Regards,
 
Deal 4 Free - 1st place in poll?

I have just been reading this lengthy thread and find it quite puzzling that given the level of reserve and criticism aimed at Deal 4 Free, they claimed first place in the most recent poll over runners-up, Capitalspreads, among trade2win members.

From what I have heard and read I would have bet on Capitalspreads taking the gold. It's amazing.

With so much criticism levelled at D4F on this site there must indeed be folk who trade with them and are happy, but I wonder who they are?

Sean
 
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