Best Thread Capital Spreads
capitalspreads
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clients must always be aware that charts are just that, 'charts', we provide them for free on live prices in some 3200 markets but you can obviously appreciate that we do not actually monitor them to filter out rogue prices . in FX these happen when the liquidity on the ECN live platform that we use for our pricing disappears and the mid point on the bid/offer moves ridiculously.
we have quite sophisticated checking tests in place to ensure that orders are not actually triggered by these rogue prints and (anyway) if a series of out prints caused an order or trade trigger incorrectly then Capital Spreads would just reverse the action and recredit (or indeed debit) the client account immediately we were made aware of it. we must prove that underlying activity caused the order execution. if we cannot do this then the client will always be reinstated and recompensed . Indeed you do mention that your stops were not acivated by the spikes.
On the GBP/CAD occasion have you noticed that the last two digits you mention are the same ... are u absolutely sure that what you thought was showing 18 was not actualy 81 ( the eyes can play tricks) not only this but the ticket is to 5 decimal places not 4 which can also confuse.
Looking at all the data sent out by our systems at that time i have to admit that i agree with my staff there were no prints at all on our systems at the prices you mention after 12.14 on that day. and certainly not at 12.31 when the lowest offer would have been at around 1.5938 . not only this but if you were buying at 1.5981 (and the trade request time was checked versus the market by our dealers and you agree that the bloomberg prices match the time) you would not have been trading until some 15 minutes later at 12.47
to be honest i am more concerned with your 7016 comment and have forwarded it to our developers
As commentators (some of whom could never be called lickspittles of the SB industry!) did kindly mention CS does take all complaints seriously and is willing to recreate senarios to find out exact events. In this particular event I really cannot see how the CS staff could have responded differently.
Simon
we have quite sophisticated checking tests in place to ensure that orders are not actually triggered by these rogue prints and (anyway) if a series of out prints caused an order or trade trigger incorrectly then Capital Spreads would just reverse the action and recredit (or indeed debit) the client account immediately we were made aware of it. we must prove that underlying activity caused the order execution. if we cannot do this then the client will always be reinstated and recompensed . Indeed you do mention that your stops were not acivated by the spikes.
On the GBP/CAD occasion have you noticed that the last two digits you mention are the same ... are u absolutely sure that what you thought was showing 18 was not actualy 81 ( the eyes can play tricks) not only this but the ticket is to 5 decimal places not 4 which can also confuse.
Looking at all the data sent out by our systems at that time i have to admit that i agree with my staff there were no prints at all on our systems at the prices you mention after 12.14 on that day. and certainly not at 12.31 when the lowest offer would have been at around 1.5938 . not only this but if you were buying at 1.5981 (and the trade request time was checked versus the market by our dealers and you agree that the bloomberg prices match the time) you would not have been trading until some 15 minutes later at 12.47
to be honest i am more concerned with your 7016 comment and have forwarded it to our developers
As commentators (some of whom could never be called lickspittles of the SB industry!) did kindly mention CS does take all complaints seriously and is willing to recreate senarios to find out exact events. In this particular event I really cannot see how the CS staff could have responded differently.
Simon
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Simon,
Thanks again for your response.
I appreciate that Caps could not have responded differently in regards to the price I got and I'm satisfied that the price I got reflected the price in the underlying market.
But, there is no confusion on my part surrounding the similar number (18 and 81) as the ticket was definitely showing the better number when I pressed the button. I wasn't going to go into minute detail on this thread, but as I explained to your Customer Services I was looking at the profit figure at the split second I pressed the button (much easier to monitor than the flashing buy and sell prices on the ticket) I do think the developers need to investigate why the ticket can display a print that is not available to deal. Customer Services said that is impossible, but I saw the price offered with my own eyes, and there is a history of similar stories on this thread. You can surely understand how a client feels to think they are getting one price but actually getting a different price - even if the underlying never printed the number shown on the ticket.
My initial worries surrounded the concern of repeats of these instances and the genuine liklihood of recovering losses caused through platform issues and erroneous spikes. You have answered those fears in the best way you can which I appreciate.
As an example though, if I run a swing trade and don't log into the account for weeks , then suddenly I log in and see I was stopped out on an erroneous spike 10 days ago and price is now 800 points further in my favour....would there be issues in getting the trade reinstated?? I'd imagine there would, but as this is hypothetical I wont dwell on it until the situation occurs.
To be fair, Customer Services did answer the phone quickly and did investigate my complaint within 24 hours. That was fair considering I've previously been waiting on the phone to IG for 2.5 hours trying to get a "phone only" position closed.
Thanks again for your response.
I appreciate that Caps could not have responded differently in regards to the price I got and I'm satisfied that the price I got reflected the price in the underlying market.
But, there is no confusion on my part surrounding the similar number (18 and 81) as the ticket was definitely showing the better number when I pressed the button. I wasn't going to go into minute detail on this thread, but as I explained to your Customer Services I was looking at the profit figure at the split second I pressed the button (much easier to monitor than the flashing buy and sell prices on the ticket) I do think the developers need to investigate why the ticket can display a print that is not available to deal. Customer Services said that is impossible, but I saw the price offered with my own eyes, and there is a history of similar stories on this thread. You can surely understand how a client feels to think they are getting one price but actually getting a different price - even if the underlying never printed the number shown on the ticket.
My initial worries surrounded the concern of repeats of these instances and the genuine liklihood of recovering losses caused through platform issues and erroneous spikes. You have answered those fears in the best way you can which I appreciate.
As an example though, if I run a swing trade and don't log into the account for weeks , then suddenly I log in and see I was stopped out on an erroneous spike 10 days ago and price is now 800 points further in my favour....would there be issues in getting the trade reinstated?? I'd imagine there would, but as this is hypothetical I wont dwell on it until the situation occurs.
To be fair, Customer Services did answer the phone quickly and did investigate my complaint within 24 hours. That was fair considering I've previously been waiting on the phone to IG for 2.5 hours trying to get a "phone only" position closed.
Received another email from Caps customer services today, which again provided evidence to prove the price I got was the correct price. They don't seem to understand that I'm not disputing this.
They also stated:
"We would like to assure that our platform was not showing incorrect or false prices at the time you were trading. However, before your trade could be accepted, the price you had requested to trade at expired."
Now that is definitely wrong! They seem to think it's impossible for the platform/ticket to show prices that are not available to trade. That is most definitely not the case.
I replied asking that they investigate that further, but also reiterating that I have no issue with the actual price my trade/s have been executed at in relation to the underlying market. They seem to automatically think I'm still complaining about the price I got even after all the screen shots they've sent me.
They also stated:
"We would like to assure that our platform was not showing incorrect or false prices at the time you were trading. However, before your trade could be accepted, the price you had requested to trade at expired."
Now that is definitely wrong! They seem to think it's impossible for the platform/ticket to show prices that are not available to trade. That is most definitely not the case.
I replied asking that they investigate that further, but also reiterating that I have no issue with the actual price my trade/s have been executed at in relation to the underlying market. They seem to automatically think I'm still complaining about the price I got even after all the screen shots they've sent me.
This is what I replied:
Hi,
I’m not sure if you understand the issue I had.
I do not dispute the price I was given when closing the trade which you have proven to have been reflected in the underlying market.
My point is, the ticket on the Platform DID show a price that was different to the price my trade was executed at. This is a fact. I was watching the prices shown on the platform, as well as my P/L level for that specific trade at the time I pressed the button on the platform.
On researching the internet, I found a forum on T2W where other traders had discussed the same issue and had been told by yourselves this was impossible.
It is not impossible – the tickets on your platform are capable of showing a price that is different to the price you are able to execute at. This a certainty because I’ve seen it.
Nonetheless, this email is not a complaint, I just want to point out that something I’ve been told is impossible, is indeed possible.
My fears surrounded the fact that if the ticket on the platform was capable of showing prices that were not being reflected in the underlying market, then what might have happened were those displayed prices trading through my stop loss. In this particular hypothetical example I have already been given an answer by a Capital Spreads employee on the internet, that answer being that if a trade was stopped out at a price not reflected by the underlying market you would then re-instate or refund the loss on that trade.
Based on this, I am satisfied with everything, only that I feel you should investigate the causes of incorrect prices being shown as described above.
Kind regards
XXXXXX
Hi,
I’m not sure if you understand the issue I had.
I do not dispute the price I was given when closing the trade which you have proven to have been reflected in the underlying market.
My point is, the ticket on the Platform DID show a price that was different to the price my trade was executed at. This is a fact. I was watching the prices shown on the platform, as well as my P/L level for that specific trade at the time I pressed the button on the platform.
On researching the internet, I found a forum on T2W where other traders had discussed the same issue and had been told by yourselves this was impossible.
It is not impossible – the tickets on your platform are capable of showing a price that is different to the price you are able to execute at. This a certainty because I’ve seen it.
Nonetheless, this email is not a complaint, I just want to point out that something I’ve been told is impossible, is indeed possible.
My fears surrounded the fact that if the ticket on the platform was capable of showing prices that were not being reflected in the underlying market, then what might have happened were those displayed prices trading through my stop loss. In this particular hypothetical example I have already been given an answer by a Capital Spreads employee on the internet, that answer being that if a trade was stopped out at a price not reflected by the underlying market you would then re-instate or refund the loss on that trade.
Based on this, I am satisfied with everything, only that I feel you should investigate the causes of incorrect prices being shown as described above.
Kind regards
XXXXXX
I think the communication with Caps relating to this issue is now exhausted, so I'm just going to leave it. Thank you to everyone here who took an interest and offered replies and recommendations.
Caps replied to the above email quickly, but still can't seem to believe that the ticket can execute at a price different to the price being displayed on the ticket.
This is their reply:
Dear XXXXXXXXXX
Thank you for your email.
Please note that when you place a trade request, it will either be accepted at the requested level or rejected. If the price requested is still within the tolerance range we can offer at the time, the trade request would be accepted. This would be the only instance in which this could happen. However, if the price moves and it is outside the tolerance level it would be deemed as invalid.
Should you require further assistance please do not hesitate to contact our Customer Support team.
Kind Regards
Caps replied to the above email quickly, but still can't seem to believe that the ticket can execute at a price different to the price being displayed on the ticket.
This is their reply:
Dear XXXXXXXXXX
Thank you for your email.
Please note that when you place a trade request, it will either be accepted at the requested level or rejected. If the price requested is still within the tolerance range we can offer at the time, the trade request would be accepted. This would be the only instance in which this could happen. However, if the price moves and it is outside the tolerance level it would be deemed as invalid.
Should you require further assistance please do not hesitate to contact our Customer Support team.
Kind Regards
I think you should have a look at the judgment against FXCM which resulted in them being fined over $16 million. Although the judgment related to forex trades I suspect the lessons may well apply to spreadbetting. I wouldnt accept any of the excuses you've been given, having said that there's not much you can do about it other than to realise what goes on in this industry. I personally wont trade forex or spreadbet, it is open to far too much abuse by brokers, many are starting to get caught now but there is a long way to go before things are cleaned up.
Yes it can, either in your favour or against you, but my point was that in the FXCM case they never credited positive slippage and passed on negative slippage. There are also systems like the MT4 Virtual Dealer plugin that are designed to delay trades to facilitate such practices. To date only FX brokerages in the US have been caught using things like this, the emphasis being on the word caught.
The assertion that these problems are all caused by slow IT systems or connections has been totally discredited.
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Ross, I think that you yourself are unsure with where you stand on the issue you have raised. If this is the case and you are not satisfied, then reply to the cs email requesting the matter be escalated to their compliance department. Whether you get any further with compliance is irrelevant for this thread, but I highlight this route as it is the next stage taken in circumstances like this.
Not missing that fact at all, though I fully appreciate it could be possible.
The fact is, the quote on the ticket was 63 points away from the price I got and from the price the underlying market actually printed at that time.
So it's not a case of price changing between click and execution, it's a case of a price being offered that (unbeknown to me at the time) was impossible to execute. When it did execute, it did so at a price other than the price shown on the ticket. This instance was not a delay between pressing button and execution, it was offering a non-existent quote, which, when accepted my me, executed at a difference price.
However, all that said, I've been told by Simon here and by Customer services that this situation is not possible. So, my only way of dealing with the situation is to continue trading as if it never happened, but, if one day I lose money through such a practice and it is not resolved fairly, I'll simply have to move on.
Again to make clear, I'm not suggesting any malpractice by Caps, just pointing out a few potential issues whether it be the chart spikes or the incorrect quotes being displayed. For now I'm continuing to trade with them as a secondary trading account at small stakes alongside my main IG account and once I feel satisfied to completely transfer main funds across from IG, I will do so. If I don't feel satisfied I'll try someone else. I guess it's as simple as that for all of us really.
What people tend to forget, i.e Customer Service departments etc and maybe even some traders themselves, is that you have a fair amount of your hard earned deposited with these companies, and it only takes the slightest thing to go wrong to lose trust in them.
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capitalspreads
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pboyles
FXCM ruling. The point about this ruling was that FXCM were slipping trades which went against the client but not improving trades where the price action went for them. Our systems do not do this .. there is no slippage on trades, you either get the trade or not. If the trade is rejected this is because the trade price is outside the spread when it hits our order engines and this works when it is for you or against you. So if you make a trade request to Buy but, by the time it hits our engine, the new offer was below the original spread then the trade will be rejected and you could then trade at a better price.
the point being that we have to be consistent with how we deal with client trades and not favour Capital Spreads
simon
FXCM ruling. The point about this ruling was that FXCM were slipping trades which went against the client but not improving trades where the price action went for them. Our systems do not do this .. there is no slippage on trades, you either get the trade or not. If the trade is rejected this is because the trade price is outside the spread when it hits our order engines and this works when it is for you or against you. So if you make a trade request to Buy but, by the time it hits our engine, the new offer was below the original spread then the trade will be rejected and you could then trade at a better price.
the point being that we have to be consistent with how we deal with client trades and not favour Capital Spreads
simon
capitalspreads
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rs 2000
i fully appreciate your comment about trust and how it must be repeatedly earned especially when you are a broker. Hopefully you will not have any further problems .. but if you do please raise them.. either directly with customer services or on this thread
simon
i fully appreciate your comment about trust and how it must be repeatedly earned especially when you are a broker. Hopefully you will not have any further problems .. but if you do please raise them.. either directly with customer services or on this thread
simon
As I understand it, that's the opposite of what that Other SB does, in that they fill at the price quoted when the order arrives, so in theory the negative and positive slippage balance out over time.
Could it be, that the price did change and a spike occurred at the same time you clicked on the order in the ticket window. As stated before, I have recorded quite a few trades with CS, trades that in fact showed that the price indeed did change before I clicked, trades just like you, at first I thought I got a different price compared to that price I clicked on. Also can the fault be on your side computer wise? How many applications and Windows are you running? What kind of broadband connection do you have? I am just asking, because I have not experienced anything like it despite thousands of trades wit CS. However, I am careful in not trading heavily during important figures, because you never know what can happened when so many tries to get into a trade at the same time.
____________
"Take control with Risk & Money Management"
Yes I agree, CS have got a very reliable fill in that you know what you get when you click.
____________
"Take control with Risk & Money Management"
Mr Squirrel
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Sorry to just blunder in here, but does anyone know if you can export CS chart data to Excel in a CSV file say? Regards, S
Simon, If it was me in RS's situation, I certainly wouldnt let it lye as I think the circumstance 'as described' is unacceptable. How often if at all, do your platforms get inspected ? Is there a system of maintenance in place. 63 points ? I'd hang you out to dry.
gle101,
In all honesty, who knows.
I only built this PC a few weeks back so it's pretty fresh, albeit not the highest of current specs.
It is potentially possible the price changed at the time I clicked, but I did not see that happen, and bear in mind I attempted to close this trade at the same price 3 times in a row in under 30 seconds, so I was pretty focused on what the ticket was displaying and on what my profit level was showing.
I will now wait and see if similar occurrences happen in the future. The more occurrences, the more weight I've got in relation to proving an issue. If it doesn't happen again, then it was obviously just one of those things.
Seeing some of the spikes on various charts, which are also replicated in the chart tick data added to my concerns surrounding the whole issue.
Other than that 63 points, which value wise was covered by that £250 introductory bonus (although that isn't reason to accept the loss), I have not technically lost any money and have been fortunate enough to have been quite profitable in the account over all. In fact, I could withdraw all of my original deposit and still have a 4 figure sum to trade from - not sure whether it's coincidence or something about their platform or even a psychological thing, but % wise my returns have been higher with Caps over the last 2 weeks than they have been with IG. That said, the stakes have been much smaller so maybe a little less risk aversion in stretching the extra few points out of a trade.
In all honesty, who knows.
I only built this PC a few weeks back so it's pretty fresh, albeit not the highest of current specs.
It is potentially possible the price changed at the time I clicked, but I did not see that happen, and bear in mind I attempted to close this trade at the same price 3 times in a row in under 30 seconds, so I was pretty focused on what the ticket was displaying and on what my profit level was showing.
I will now wait and see if similar occurrences happen in the future. The more occurrences, the more weight I've got in relation to proving an issue. If it doesn't happen again, then it was obviously just one of those things.
Seeing some of the spikes on various charts, which are also replicated in the chart tick data added to my concerns surrounding the whole issue.
Other than that 63 points, which value wise was covered by that £250 introductory bonus (although that isn't reason to accept the loss), I have not technically lost any money and have been fortunate enough to have been quite profitable in the account over all. In fact, I could withdraw all of my original deposit and still have a 4 figure sum to trade from - not sure whether it's coincidence or something about their platform or even a psychological thing, but % wise my returns have been higher with Caps over the last 2 weeks than they have been with IG. That said, the stakes have been much smaller so maybe a little less risk aversion in stretching the extra few points out of a trade.
