Can you be long and short at same time?

[brewski1984]

This is ridiculous. Surely all you're doing is deluding yourself into thinking you can go long and short at the same time and profit from both trades. As soon as you close one side leaving the other side (which will be the profit/loss of the first trade subtract double the spread) you've just chosen a direction. To profit from both trades you need to get one of the directions to run further than the other after you've closed one, which is exactly the same as taking one trade in the first place!

 

[Atilla]

Did you get a flight school discount from H Cojones?

Don't know who he is, but do you recommend that I do?

 

[Liquid validity]

Don't know who he is, but do you recommend that I do?

Yes, its splendid value, he can teach you how to do a loop
in front of a steam roller

 

[Atilla]

Yes, its splendid value, he can teach you how to do a loop
in front of a steam roller

I've done one of those loop da loops in a glider will that pass ?

 

[Liquid validity]

I've done one of those loop da loops in a glider will that pass ?

Only after 200 passes whilst avoiding the steamroller

 

[Atilla]

Only after 200 passes whilst avoiding the steamroller

Can steamrollers fly?

 

[robster970]

If most people are telling you this is a bad idea Atilla, why are you struggling to accept it may be so?

 

[Atilla]

If most people are telling you this is a bad idea Atilla, why are you struggling to accept it may be so?

I am not disputing or struggling with the narrow way the question and answer has been phrased. I accept yes.

In my post #152 I accept and have highlighted the extra fees payed for the trade can result in a loss.

In fixed income butterfly trading is very much a valid technique - but hang on it is not the same instrument therefore it is a load of bollox hawhaw hawhaw - loadsa laughter. I don't know wtf I'm talking about. The clever cloggs read you the riot act.

And yes I have traded the EURUSD being short on long term weekly chart setups and long on intra-day trades.

Yes I do know I can close one and go long and avoid giving money back to the market or paying extra trading costs.

Never the less it is a trading approach depending on whether I've taken the call on 200MA crossover or 20MA?


It is simply the condescending arrogant way some members go about treating the matter and any attempt to discuss any variances on the theme is STAMPED upon by so many smart aleks crapping all over the debate.

Wholeheartedly agree with Timsk and then some people have the audacity to grumble about quality of threads.

Talk about running with the Hare and chasing with the hounds.

Ooopsy was that a Freudian slip

 

[Intel_Bvc]

There's such fierce debate on this thread that I thought long and hard before posting... But I thought rather than trying to convince anyone whats wrong or right I would simply share my own personal experience.

I've tried to read most of the posts on this thread so i'm up to speed but forgive me if I've missed anything.

Firstly in order to answer the original question, "can you be long and short at the same time?"... from my understanding the answer is: that depends on your broker and I think its primarily a case of whether you're based in the US or not.

With a UK broker for example, if you really wanted to go long and short the same currency pair then technically you can.

That leads on to the other issue which is whether or not there's any benefit that can be derived from being positioned this way. I fully agree that its a zero sum game and in fact your doubling your trading costs when you can in-fact just be flat.

But in my particular example I have to be able to be long and short at the same time because I have several different strategies that my system employs. These strategies were created independantly of each other and often have different hold times. For example, I am often Long GBP/USD one strategy (10 days hold) and short GBP/USD on a different strategy that has a 7 day hold.

But even then its not necessarily a case of different hold times. I can have two different strategies that have the same optimum hold time on a given currency and they can also generate long and short signals at the same time. When they do this I still have to execute each set of trades because my statistics have been calculated on the premise that you trade every single signal.

So if strategy A has win rate of 70% and so does Strategy B I just have to accept that when they're both on, one is going to be a winner and one is going to be a loser. But this is fine, in this circumstance the benefit of doing this is not a monetary one, the benefit is that I can carry out the key task of trading each individual strategy how it needs to be traded, and this ensures that my returns are inline with the analysis that was carried out under the assumption that every signal is traded. For me trades are generated every hour and positions are built up over time so its not really even feasible to just say I'll go flat when I get long and short signals.

Finally, even if you were to consider the very same strategy, on the same currency, exact same hold time, and the system went long and short at the same time this still doesn't necessarily have to be a zero-sum game.

If a strategy has the following setup

SL: -100 pips
TP: +300 pips

If you went long and short at the same time and price moved over 300pips UP then you would actually make a net profit of 200 pips. This is because the short would have stopped out -100pips and the long would have taken profit at 300pips. Of course there is also a chance that both your stop losses could be triggered if price reverses before hitting the take profit, in this case you'd actually end up being down -200pips.

So in my humble opinion, if you're trading the same trade size that all goes on at once, holding it for the same amount of time, without stop-losses or take-profits then it truly is a zero-sum game. But like I hope I've illustrated above there can be several reasons why you may have to be long and short at the same time and it could be beneficial, whether in a non-financial way, like ensuring you trade your system/strategies how they need to be traded, or for financial gain because they have different hold times etc and going neutral or one way or the other isn't necessarily a practical option.

 

[Intel_Bvc]

And just to actually answer your original question Gregpearce32, if you are with Alpari UK then you can definitely be long and short the same currency pair at the same time if you so wish.

 

[brewski1984]

Do you go long gbp/usd on a 7 day hold and short on a 10 day hold for exactly the same £pp?

 

[brewski1984]

If a strategy has the following setup

SL: -100 pips
TP: +300 pips

If you went long and short at the same time and price moved over 300pips UP then you would actually make a net profit of 200 pips. This is because the short would have stopped out -100pips and the long would have taken profit at 300pips. Of course there is also a chance that both your stop losses could be triggered if price reverses before hitting the take profit, in this case you'd actually end up being down -200pips.

Why not just take 1 trade with a 200 point target and 200 point stop?

 

[the hare]

I think we'll probably need a bigger boat.

Threads like this really do highlight why trading forums are generally a very dumb idea (unless you own or work for one !)

 

[cablemonster]

I am not disputing or struggling with the narrow way the question and answer has been phrased. I accept yes.

In my post #152 I accept and have highlighted the extra fees payed for the trade can result in a loss.

In fixed income butterfly trading is very much a valid technique - but hang on it is not the same instrument therefore it is a load of bollox hawhaw hawhaw - loadsa laughter. I don't know wtf I'm talking about. The clever cloggs read you the riot act.

And yes I have traded the EURUSD being short on long term weekly chart setups and long on intra-day trades.

Yes I do know I can close one and go long and avoid giving money back to the market or paying extra trading costs.

Never the less it is a trading approach depending on whether I've taken the call on 200MA crossover or 20MA?


It is simply the condescending arrogant way some members go about treating the matter and any attempt to discuss any variances on the theme is STAMPED upon by so many smart aleks crapping all over the debate.

Wholeheartedly agree with Timsk and then some people have the audacity to grumble about quality of threads.

Talk about running with the Hare and chasing with the hounds.

Ooopsy was that a Freudian slip

No biggie mate but you are throwing the butterfly curveball in when it is not relevant. If you are long and short the same instrument same quantity then you are flat period paragraph.

You can construct all manner of condors, butterflys, a whole army of spread strats, its not the same thing.

The only possible circumstance I can see where someone could be long and short at the same time is for 2 strats. Say 1 position trade and 1 scalp. This would then be done to keep the stats 'separate. '

 

[malaguti]

The only possible circumstance I can see where someone could be long and short at the same time is for 2 strats. Say 1 position trade and 1 scalp. This would then be done to keep the stats 'separate. '

so in a nutshell, it is possible
all that sh1t throwing for nothing

 

[Liquid validity]

The only possible circumstance I can see where someone could be long and short at the same time is for 2 strats. Say 1 position trade and 1 scalp. This would then be done to keep the stats 'separate. '

Even then, its arguable that if the long term trade was and still is valid,
to create an efficient portfolio, the shorter term stuff should be in the same direction.
So in effect its akin to scaling in or lumping on when its going your way.

If an H1 chart is in a downtrend, with no SR or BRN areas as potential support,
I would rather be taking shorts only with an additional higher frequency method
on the same instrument.

 

[Liquid validity]

so in a nutshell, it is possible
all that sh1t throwing for nothing

Anything is possible, doesn't mean it will actually help your bottom line though.
Cost reduction / keeping costs in check should be the top priority for anyone
trading intraday.

If every broker doubled their spreads & comms tomorrow, there would be pandemonium
on every trading forum going...

 

[Intel_Bvc]

Do you go long gbp/usd on a 7 day hold and short on a 10 day hold for exactly the same £pp?

The full trade size doesn't ever all go on at once so its impossible for me to know beforehand whether two strategies will eventually accumulate the same trade size. If two strategies started generating trades at the same time, accumulated the exact same trade size but in opposite directions then i already acknowledged in my post that they'll be zero-gain. The point I'm making though is that I need to be long and short because I do not know in advance how large each position will eventually become. Although of course they could ultimately end up being the same size on occasion.

Why not just take 1 trade with a 200 point target and 200 point stop?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you did that, wouldn't you making profit depend on whether the price went in the direction of the trade? Whereas the scenario I described means that you make a profit regardless of the direction it goes, so long as it moves 300pips without reversing after the stop-loss of the opposing trade takes it out.

I think we'll probably need a bigger boat.

Threads like this really do highlight why trading forums are generally a very dumb idea (unless you own or work for one !)

I'm simply sharing my own personal experience, I'm not here to rubbish peoples comments. I'm not an experienced trader. In fact I'm more of a Database Developer than anything else. However I've been fortunate enough to learn a few things from a professional trader who works for a quant fund.

I've started a thread in which I'm openly demonstrating to this forum my Neural Network system. I currently have long and short positions on GBP/USD. As time goes on I'll be long and short the other currency pairs and I'll be long and long inversely-correlated currencies and all different scenarios. However at the end of it I can guarantee you that the system remains profitable.

That's all I can say really.

People should do what works for them until someone can open their eyes to an alternative. If it makes sense and holds true then they'll change their ways. We're all here to learn... right?

 

[brewski1984]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you did that, wouldn't you making profit depend on whether the price went in the direction of the trade? Whereas the scenario I described means that you make a profit regardless of the direction it goes, so long as it moves 300pips without reversing after the stop-loss of the opposing trade takes it out.

You're not the only person missing something here, as soon as one of the trades gets stopped out you would be making profit depending on whether the price went in the direction of the other trade. Until that point your P/L is exactly 0 subtract double the spread/comms ie, flat with twice the costs.

 

[tar]

Even then, its arguable that if the long term trade was and still is valid,
to create an efficient portfolio, the shorter term stuff should be in the same direction.
.

Not necessarily , especially when scalping some may not even consider the long term trend at all .