itspossible
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^it would be interesting to find the persons.
Also i would never admit it or approach hmrc.I would plead ignorance
Also i would never admit it or approach hmrc.I would plead ignorance
Are all my spread bet profits tax free?
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timsk
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FoMo,
If you want to pursue this for your own interest - by all means carry on. But please don't do it for my benefit - or in response to any of my posts to this thread - as it's clear to me that we're never going to agree on this. Not least because your idea of 'evidence' is an article by some bloke called Terry (no other details on his profile). He's written loads of stuff for the site you link to on a multitude of different subjects - which suggests to me he's an expert blogger rather than an expert on his subject matter. I'm sure you'll find any number of articles like that, but they're of no interest to me and don't add any weight to your argument. It's just different people saying the same thing: I expect he based his article on your posts!
Tim.
Forexmospherian
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FoMo,
If you want to pursue this for your own interest - by all means carry on. But please don't do it for my benefit - or in response to any of my posts to this thread - as it's clear to me that we're never going to agree on this. Not least because your idea of 'evidence' is an article by some bloke called Terry (no other details on his profile). He's written loads of stuff for the site you link to on a multitude of different subjects - which suggests to me he's an expert blogger rather than an expert on his subject matter. I'm sure you'll find any number of articles like that, but they're of no interest to me and don't add any weight to your argument. It's just different people saying the same thing: I expect he based his article on your posts!
Tim.
Sorry Tim
So the Paul Doran article featured in the Times this year - does not count ??
Surely you are not saying this guy has no credence ?
I am amazed at your own attitude here ?
Regards
F
PS - maybe you did not read that article ? - Paul Doran is a well respected employment Lawyer with a MA with distinction - so not just as you say a guy blogging as "Terry"
barjon
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No, the guy was just expressing his opinion as to the possibility. HMRC, on the other hand, present you with the facts of the matter.
And, of course, itspossible's left wotsit is perfectly safe and intact
Forexmospherian
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No, the guy was just expressing his opinion as to the possibility. HMRC, on the other hand, present you with the facts of the matter.
And, of course, itspossible's left wotsit is perfectly safe and intact
Hi Jon
As you might guess - I have to disagree
If you have any contacts with guys at the HMRC when you used to work there - please contact them and ask about the latest revisions going on from 2013 and one as recent at January 15th 2015.
My info is coming via my own accountant who is using his contacts in the KPMG Birminghams specialist tax department.
The fact that both you and TIm just don't believe any of this - please just wait until i receive the latest information about splitting spreadbetters into different categories enabling the majority to retain their gambling profits as tax free gains - whilst full time spread betters paying no other forms of taxation and trading on a basis that is no longer classified as irregular or random and its forming their main income - into a non gambling but trading category - that then can be easily taxed.
By doing this the HMRC are able to get around the difficult situation of allowing any gambling losses to be deducted from income gains and of course maybe 85 /90% of normal spread betters will not be affected.
Of course as expected the small percentage of full time spread betters who make annual profits - are worth taxing - ie like another example of only 1% of the working population providing 30% of the HMRC income tax receipts
I just hope I can get this put to bed in next week or so - but i am in the hands of others etc etc - and of course their main advice is for every individual to get their own specialist advice - as so many individual cases are different - but if you are a part time spreadbetter - already paying income tax / paye etc etc from employment - and are up to date with the HMRC etc etc - then you have no worries or concerns at all
As for "itspossible" - ignorance of the law or HMRC rules and regulations does not count as an excuse anyway - that's why every spreadbetting company cover themselves now in the small print - except maybe ETX Capital spread betters ?
Regards
F
barjon
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well, rather than ferret around looking for peoples' opinions of what might be why don't you try to unearth someone who is being taxed? You can then truly have the pleasure of being right as well as the dubious distinction of leaving itspossible a tad lopsided.
timsk
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Hi FoMo,
Let me know when you're done!
Tim.
I concur 100% with Jon's comment, above.
Coming from you - I'll take that as a compliment!
As I said in my last post, if you want to carry on for your own amusement saying the same thing ad nauseam and supplying streams of anecdotal 'evidence' - it's your time to waste. If your motivation is in the best interests of the membership and you want to provide hard facts supported by real evidence based on the criteria others have mentioned and that I've clearly laid out in post #60 and post #67 to this thread, then you'll have my attention. In the meantime, I'm not going to be lured down off topic cul-de-sacs debating the credentials of individual staff members of law and accountancy firms.
Let me know when you're done!
Tim.
Forexmospherian
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Hi FoMo,
I concur 100% with Jon's comment, above.
Coming from you - I'll take that as a compliment!
As I said in my last post, if you want to carry on for your own amusement saying the same thing ad nauseam and supplying streams of anecdotal 'evidence' - it's your time to waste. If your motivation is in the best interests of the membership and you want to provide hard facts supported by real evidence based on the criteria others have mentioned and that I've clearly laid out in post #60 and post #67 to this thread, then you'll have my attention. In the meantime, I'm not going to be lured down off topic cul-de-sacs debating the credentials of individual staff members of law and accountancy firms.
Let me know when you're done!
Tim.
Will do Tim
Forexmospherian
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Hi Jon
Have done come across 14 cases so far (including me ) - but so far none have been straightforward - all very clever tactics by the HMRC - and personally from my own experience with them - I would expect that.
I don't want to disclose these 14 cases atm ( maybe if I need to but dont want to reveal my sources ) but one classic one you might be able to find more about is the ex-chartered accountant / IG and the HMRC.
IG - quite correctly and this goes on all the time - informed the HMRC of unusual betting activities on a spreadbetters account. - obviously they did not like him continually winning with his bets - and so with it being large amounts of monies were suspicious.
The HMRC did their job and investigated - as they should.
On the surface the spreadbetter should have had no worries as he was a professional person and paid his taxes and so - all his winning would be tax free and so initially he was not concerned.
But - it does not stop there - the HMRC checked through all his bets over a period and must have been intrigued with his success rate and the large amounts of monies he was winning.
They could not have him on being late with his taxes - or not paying any etc - he had not previously been on a hit list and so that should have been the end of the matter.
They smelled something was suspicious in his interviews so decided to investigate a lot farther and over time - their work paid off - he had been inside trading and forget the fines and tax implications etc - instead he was struck off by the accountancy board and I believe a jail sentence.
I am sure IG would have not have informed the HMRC if he had only won a few thousand pounds and also had been having losses - like normal traders etc etc - but any professional full time spreadbetter - will always come under the spotlight - its then how its handled.
I know you would know this Jon - or are you now going to say - no - its does not happen at all ?
Regards
F
M
malaguti
But he wasn't taxed or penalized from spreadbetting but insider trading
Your point is...
Forexmospherian
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My point here is simple
As with another 10 cases - the Spreadbetting company informed the HMRC of clients with continual wins - either showing they are professional - or having an unusual success rate that stands out and therefore - are of interest to the HMRC and of course - not really the type of clients the spread betting companies want - it cost them money
If these spreadbetters are normal tax payers - ie have other occupations and pay taxes - and are not behind with tax affairs or doing anything illegal and are not professionals who only source of income is via spreadbetting - then NO PROBLEM
As i have continued to say from the beginning of this thread - the majority of spreadbetters - ie 70 or 80 or even 90% of all spreadbetters have no worries - their winning whether just a few hundred pounds a year or even ten's of thousands per year are TAX FREE.
However the other spreadbetters - who might not be declaring all their incomes - or have more than say 2 or 3 jobs - or even are behind with their tax declarations etc etc - or finally are full time spread betters -paying no other income tax or PAYE - will be discovered and then investigated further - ie its a "bait case"
This might just be 5 or 10% of spreadbetters ..... or it might be 25 % or 30% of all spreadbetters who might be doing something wrong.
Forget then the word TAX - think in terms of a fine or penalty which involves paying money over to the HMRC.
As another analogue - think of it as like driving a car in a 30 mph speed limit with speed camera's - at 28 mph - you are safe - no problem - at 32mph - you are still safe ( 10% error factor ) at 40 mph you will be flashed and photo'd and will receive a fine in the post - at 60 mph - its more serious - above 100 mph - you lose your licence for 3 months etc etc
But its not just the speeding that could cost you - its then check on your tax and insurance and who's driving and everything else that is then looked at - ie opens up a can of worms another example of a "bait case"
If I worked at the HMRC and I am sure you would do the same Malaguti - I would want a list off all spreadbetting companies of all spreadbetters who have had more than say £1000 in wins every month. Maybe only 20% need investigating ie the odd guy who's won £5k one week and £3k the next week or month.
This is my point
Don't think 100% you are not in the spotlight and what ever you do - all your winnings are tax free and you will not end up ending up paying something over to the HMRC - this is clearly not the case - but meanwhile if you are a normal tax paying spreadbetter with nothing hidden in the closet -- NO PROBLEM
If I am not being clear here - please let me know
I am not scaremongering - my interests are with all retail traders spread betters or not - as spreadbetting companies are now advising their client - check their own individual personal case with a proper tax adviser / accountant - and then you will know exactly were you should stand
Regards
F
M
malaguti
I'm not being obtuse, but your point isn't simple to me
The purpose of this thread has been whether spreadbetting is tax free and now its about HMRC coming after you, and your using an example of somebody who was insider trading.
How is that proving a point.
Had he been investigated, and then HMRC with no other reason than to rise above the law and tax him for spreadbetting..thats it, just spreadbetting, then you have a point F.
He was breaking the law, he got done, justice was served.
and back to the point of this thread which is being missed....
Go on mate, talk to us about an accountancy firm in Brmingham please. That centre of the financial world that is solihull
let me edit after reading tomortons post. yes there may be something that is keeping me interested here, but its like watching a movie that never quite reaches a climax. If spreadbetting is taxable, I'd absolutely love to know about it but not from somebody who was indeed breaking the law
yes I killed him your honour, but at least i was paying me taxes! what do you mean you're sending me down for murder
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Your example of this trader is a bad one F, and the speeding analogy doesn't help. As malaguti says, the guy wasn't a trader, he was an inside trader, and his SB patterns would have made that pretty easy for IG to pick up. And very difficult for them to not offer him up to HM Government. But insider trading isn't a tax evasion issue: its nothing to do with HMRC and not connected with SB winnings.
I'm following this thread as I have a sneaking suspicion you might be right, and HMRC might come after anyone with an invisible income but no PAYE record. But I'm hoping for a more relevant case one way or t'other.
I'm following this thread as I have a sneaking suspicion you might be right, and HMRC might come after anyone with an invisible income but no PAYE record. But I'm hoping for a more relevant case one way or t'other.
barjon
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You have got a fertile imagination, FXMO. Whatever IG may have reported it wouldn't have been because they thought the guy should have been paying tax on his SB winnings. Money laundering maybe, insider trading maybe, but not about tax.
Similarly, HMRC wouldn't have shied from taking the tax if it was due however nefariously gained.
Most of all they wouldn't have taken any tax because spread betting Income is not taxable!!
Forexmospherian
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Hi tomorton
According to my own accountant - the other spreadbetters who wlll force the issue are those who are squeaky clean and can afford spending £10 k to £35k on taking it the whole way through the courts.
In my own case - I had that opportunity - I was declaring and paying tax on previous gains on other non spreadbetting trading - with the idea of then looking if I could put through more earning via spreadbetting and with the gains remaining tax free.
It was complex and I did not want my own personal affairs out in the open and in any newspapers etc etc - so I took the easy option - paid penalty fines and interest based on a compromised negotiated settlement. I had previous history - all minor nothing criminal - just bending the rules etc etc
I am sure many others in a similar situation would do the same
Regards
F
counter_violent
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Only One thing I am sure about.
Richard Branson would never have partnered anyone who couldn't sort out his farthers from his furthers.
Thank the lord i'm on 12 hr shifts....reading this tripe would do my bonce in !!!!
Hi F -
I don't criticise - I suppose very few spreadbetters can / would afford to risk fighting HMRC and still posssibly having to pay tax as well as legal bills, plus look forward to a lifetime of periodical tax investigations. On top of which, we're not likely to hear from many spreadbetters who have "volunteered" to pay tax on SB winnings, whether as part of a package deal with HMRC on other potentially taxable stuff or as a stand-alone issue.
I don't believe SB companies have the authority to pronounce on HMRC policy. My own company says -
"Any capital gains you make from financial spread betting are completely free of Capital Gains and Income tax (for UK residents)."
but also -
"Tax treatment depends on the individual circumstances of each client....."
This is a very clear message that they are not convinced SB winnings are tax-free in every circumstance.
Upshot is I tend towards believing HMRC reserve the option to pursue any one of us for tax on SB winnings if they can think of a way to do it and if the sums in question are large enough.
But where's the evidence?
I don't criticise - I suppose very few spreadbetters can / would afford to risk fighting HMRC and still posssibly having to pay tax as well as legal bills, plus look forward to a lifetime of periodical tax investigations. On top of which, we're not likely to hear from many spreadbetters who have "volunteered" to pay tax on SB winnings, whether as part of a package deal with HMRC on other potentially taxable stuff or as a stand-alone issue.
I don't believe SB companies have the authority to pronounce on HMRC policy. My own company says -
"Any capital gains you make from financial spread betting are completely free of Capital Gains and Income tax (for UK residents)."
but also -
"Tax treatment depends on the individual circumstances of each client....."
This is a very clear message that they are not convinced SB winnings are tax-free in every circumstance.
Upshot is I tend towards believing HMRC reserve the option to pursue any one of us for tax on SB winnings if they can think of a way to do it and if the sums in question are large enough.
But where's the evidence?
barjon
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Tomo
.....and I've explained previously those "individual circumstances". Otherwise HMRC are bound by law and precedent. That's not to say the position can't change in the future but it can't change merely at the whim of HMRC.
Forexmospherian
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Only One thing I am sure about.
Richard Branson would never have partnered anyone who couldn't sort out his farthers from his furthers.
Thank the lord i'm on 12 hr shifts....reading this tripe would do my bonce in !!!!
It might be tripe to you CV
A lot of reality is though
Regards
F
PS
Remember RB went to jail on a VAT fraud - maybe that was more tripe ;-)
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