spy74
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I don't work for them and have never had any contact with them.
I did investigate their trading careers offering a while back. They give you a 70/30 profit split, and the more profit you make the more size you can trade with.
However, the maximum drawdown system is very annoying. Its something like £400 x the number of lots you can trade. So it will be constantly changing on a near daily basis.
They only provide remote trading. So you have to trade from home, they have no trading office as far as I can gather.
What completely put me off was that you have to give them a "refundable fee" of £300 to go on their simulator and then if you pass you get the money back. If you don't pass then they keep the £300. My concern is not with them not giving you the money back because as they state they have admin fees etc to pay for. My worry is what sort of firm asks for £300 "refundable fee" in the first place. They can't be that well capitalised for this or they are too lazy to screen prospective candidates.
I did investigate their trading careers offering a while back. They give you a 70/30 profit split, and the more profit you make the more size you can trade with.
However, the maximum drawdown system is very annoying. Its something like £400 x the number of lots you can trade. So it will be constantly changing on a near daily basis.
They only provide remote trading. So you have to trade from home, they have no trading office as far as I can gather.
What completely put me off was that you have to give them a "refundable fee" of £300 to go on their simulator and then if you pass you get the money back. If you don't pass then they keep the £300. My concern is not with them not giving you the money back because as they state they have admin fees etc to pay for. My worry is what sort of firm asks for £300 "refundable fee" in the first place. They can't be that well capitalised for this or they are too lazy to screen prospective candidates.
spy74
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Thanks Pento - appreciated
After looking a little further, it appears the firm is owned by an ex hedge fund PM (Millennium Partners), who left sometime last year to start his own gig. The co was incorporated in April this year,so still quite new, and all trading is through Interactive Brokers. They seem quite open to you being able to trade other contracts than the ones advertised as long as you can stick within their risk profile.
Surely IB wouldn't let them operate like this without sufficient capital?
Had no idea it was through IB. Have seen a few of these sorts of set ups popping up recently. Where instead of going through the "classic" clearers you go through an online broker who completes the clearing and you pay more per round turn than at an arcade. Check the "arcades have had their day" thread in the trading arcades section for an idea of how these firms operate.
They don't need loads of capital with IB to have this structure. As when you start off you can only trade a few lots. So the most they need to deposit with IB would be a couple of thousand. And then when you trade larger size its only because you have built up some capital in the account from your profits. So for this firm "pulsar" and others like it its a low capital approach to get more and more people trading under them.
This firm structure may suit new traders without an idea of how to trade and without other knowledge of the day trading world. However, if you're experienced in trading then I would recommend setting up your own account with an FCM or even IB and trading for yourself without giving them 70% for nothing. Essentially all this firm is doing is going through the FCM anyway and I'm assuming charging you more for round turns than IB would or that IB give them a kick-back on your volume.
Unless of course there are some benefits to going through pulsar? The only drawback I can think of is that to set up your own account you need the starting capital of a couple thousand. Do pulsar provide any support or assistance to its remote traders?
They don't need loads of capital with IB to have this structure. As when you start off you can only trade a few lots. So the most they need to deposit with IB would be a couple of thousand. And then when you trade larger size its only because you have built up some capital in the account from your profits. So for this firm "pulsar" and others like it its a low capital approach to get more and more people trading under them.
This firm structure may suit new traders without an idea of how to trade and without other knowledge of the day trading world. However, if you're experienced in trading then I would recommend setting up your own account with an FCM or even IB and trading for yourself without giving them 70% for nothing. Essentially all this firm is doing is going through the FCM anyway and I'm assuming charging you more for round turns than IB would or that IB give them a kick-back on your volume.
Unless of course there are some benefits to going through pulsar? The only drawback I can think of is that to set up your own account you need the starting capital of a couple thousand. Do pulsar provide any support or assistance to its remote traders?
spy74
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Thanks Pento - note that the profit split is 70/30 in your favour. So paying away 30% to have no downside risk is not a bad proposition IMHO - although i guess it comes down to where you're at in your trading.
From the little interaction I've had with them and from what I can garner from the website, it looks like you are completely on your own. Still, for someone in their intermediate stages of trading from home (i.e starting to get some reasonable consistency going, and can demonstrably stick to a plan, but still trading a small clip) this kind of set-up appears to offer a relatively cheap call option over your own trading, i.e plenty of potential upside and none of the downside.
I'm still somewhat of a Nana when it comes to using my own capital to size up, and i guess when you're still relatively new at this, that's probably a good thing. so this kind of deal does look quite interesting. worst case, you lose your 300 GBP and walk away, best case is that you go on to make kazillions for this guy and keep 70% of it without risking a cent of your own, but the most likely case i guess, is that you pass the sim stage (and get your 300 GBP back) get some more trading experience/confidence (again without losing a cent of your own), make a few bob to add to your own trading capital and buy a few beers - then get stopped out!
Just a thought - again, I think you're right that it all comes down to where you're at and what you want from your trading.
It does make sense to take up their offer if you're new or not in a financial position to put down your own capital. Then as you say you give them 30% of profits for use of their capital and take on all the upside with no risk on the downside. It's like an insurance policy.
If I was in your shoes and considering taking the pulsar offer on then I'd look to get a few answers first.
1. if and when you build up your account, on the off chance pulsar go bankrupt what happens to the money in that account? are you still entitled to your 70% or is the whole account classified as pulsars capital?
2. How much do they charge for round trips. Are these prices competitive?
3. Can you draw your 70% of the account when you like? Some companies allow daily withdrawals if needed whereas others lock your money in for 6 months; for example at that firm you can draw profits from July in the following January. Obviously you want freedom of access to your account.
As Pulsar only offer remote trading access and you say there is no support or interaction with anyone from there then all they are offering you is access no mentor, trading teacher, risk management. You say you are not a new trader but not yet very experienced. Do you have any track record, like trading statements? If you do then you can approach other trading firms and see whether they can match or better what pulsar is offering. As its remote trading I'm fairly certain there would be a couple other firms out there offering something similar.
If I was in your shoes and considering taking the pulsar offer on then I'd look to get a few answers first.
1. if and when you build up your account, on the off chance pulsar go bankrupt what happens to the money in that account? are you still entitled to your 70% or is the whole account classified as pulsars capital?
2. How much do they charge for round trips. Are these prices competitive?
3. Can you draw your 70% of the account when you like? Some companies allow daily withdrawals if needed whereas others lock your money in for 6 months; for example at that firm you can draw profits from July in the following January. Obviously you want freedom of access to your account.
As Pulsar only offer remote trading access and you say there is no support or interaction with anyone from there then all they are offering you is access no mentor, trading teacher, risk management. You say you are not a new trader but not yet very experienced. Do you have any track record, like trading statements? If you do then you can approach other trading firms and see whether they can match or better what pulsar is offering. As its remote trading I'm fairly certain there would be a couple other firms out there offering something similar.
spy74
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Thanks Pento...points 1 & 3 very useful indeed. still building up a track record. since starting trading full time, i have a couple of months live, (after spending 3 months on a sim). I'm working towards 6 months live before I think I'll be in a position to look around
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Yes, would say you need at least if not more than 6 months live experience before you can shop around for deals. Every new firm will ask how long you have been trading live and how profitable you have been. But, if after 6 month you are not profitable then I wouldn't think it's worth looking around, better off spending your time focusing on your trading. You need to have experience and then be profitable after all costs are taken away. Good luck!
Those prices are not as bad as I thought they might be.
EDIT: I just checked the IB site. FESX is EUR 2.00, but that is per contract ie per side. So a round turn is EUR 4.00. So spy74 I'm assuming all the prices they've given you need to be doubled to give you a round turn price.
Very expensive. If you're only trading once a day then it don't matter too much.
EDIT: I just checked the IB site. FESX is EUR 2.00, but that is per contract ie per side. So a round turn is EUR 4.00. So spy74 I'm assuming all the prices they've given you need to be doubled to give you a round turn price.
Very expensive. If you're only trading once a day then it don't matter too much.
123 Trading
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Hi All,
Have followed this discussion with interest since I am too thinking of start trading through Pulsar Capital. Thanks for all the info given.
About commissions charged: I have compared the ones spy74 left here with the ones IB advertises and they are similar.
Compared with what I have seen in some other firms, I do not think that those are low commissions, but I would not call them “very high” too.
However, based on my personal experience, in futures trading commissions are almost irrelevant if you have a winning strategy.
Much more important is how good and reliable the platform is (I do not have any experience with IB, so I can´t talk about this).
For example, if you currently trade the ES, you are trading a contract whose value is of around 50,000 USD and paying 2 USD per trade. This is 0.004%... it´s totally irrelevant.
Now, back to Pulsar.
Assuming that their platform is ok, I guess in the end it all comes down to me answering these two questions:
- Do I have enough capital to trade on my own?
- Am I willing to give them 30% of my profits and transfer all the market risk to them?
Do you agree?
Have followed this discussion with interest since I am too thinking of start trading through Pulsar Capital. Thanks for all the info given.
About commissions charged: I have compared the ones spy74 left here with the ones IB advertises and they are similar.
Compared with what I have seen in some other firms, I do not think that those are low commissions, but I would not call them “very high” too.
However, based on my personal experience, in futures trading commissions are almost irrelevant if you have a winning strategy.
Much more important is how good and reliable the platform is (I do not have any experience with IB, so I can´t talk about this).
For example, if you currently trade the ES, you are trading a contract whose value is of around 50,000 USD and paying 2 USD per trade. This is 0.004%... it´s totally irrelevant.
Now, back to Pulsar.
Assuming that their platform is ok, I guess in the end it all comes down to me answering these two questions:
- Do I have enough capital to trade on my own?
- Am I willing to give them 30% of my profits and transfer all the market risk to them?
Do you agree?
spy74
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What appeals to me is that providing you can make the required return and sharpes ratio, according to their trading plan, they will scale you up quite quickly - faster than I'd scale up trading my own capital. Personally, I'd only add another contract per 10k of risk capital I had, whereas they'll add to your clip alot faster.
They say that you'll have your own separate account with IB and that you can draw on your profits when you like. Given that you have your own account and statements, you can also keep building your personal track record.
They say that you'll have your own separate account with IB and that you can draw on your profits when you like. Given that you have your own account and statements, you can also keep building your personal track record.
123_Trading
The commissions are high, very high no doubt about it. I've not heard of higher commissions apart from at a retail broker. Pulsar are not a retail broker and therefore it would be the normal assumption that the commissions would be lower as you in effect work for them.
The contract value on ES is near enough irrelevant. You're not going to make 50,000 USD off that 1 lot. The percentage cost of commissions obviously depends on your trading style and how many ticks you take as a profit. But if you can go to another broker which charges 3 USD and you do 100 trades a day then thats 100 USD that you are better off. Multiply that by how many days you work in the year it adds up. Having said that, I still feel the trading platform mainly and then the firm itself is more important than the commissions they charge.
Yes agree with your two questions. You only need around £5000 to trade for your own account or to remote trade through another firm. There are plenty of companies out there which are now offering you remote trading "courses" for £5000 and they then let you trade with that money.
If you have no capital and no market experience then I'd say the £300 fee could be worth a punt. However, if you have no experience then the firm pulsar won't help you along the way or teach you anything. It's like a self learning course and all they provide is the capital for you to trade with after you pass their course.
The commissions are high, very high no doubt about it. I've not heard of higher commissions apart from at a retail broker. Pulsar are not a retail broker and therefore it would be the normal assumption that the commissions would be lower as you in effect work for them.
The contract value on ES is near enough irrelevant. You're not going to make 50,000 USD off that 1 lot. The percentage cost of commissions obviously depends on your trading style and how many ticks you take as a profit. But if you can go to another broker which charges 3 USD and you do 100 trades a day then thats 100 USD that you are better off. Multiply that by how many days you work in the year it adds up. Having said that, I still feel the trading platform mainly and then the firm itself is more important than the commissions they charge.
Yes agree with your two questions. You only need around £5000 to trade for your own account or to remote trade through another firm. There are plenty of companies out there which are now offering you remote trading "courses" for £5000 and they then let you trade with that money.
If you have no capital and no market experience then I'd say the £300 fee could be worth a punt. However, if you have no experience then the firm pulsar won't help you along the way or teach you anything. It's like a self learning course and all they provide is the capital for you to trade with after you pass their course.
Commissions soon add up, its not so obvious when you are trading one or two contracts but when you get to 10 or 20 they start taking quite a chunk out of your profits. For instance I think they quote about 2 euros per side on the FESX. Trading 10 contracts youd be paying 40 euros per round trip, even if you only traded twice a day that would be 1600 euros a month commission.
So even with a healthy 16,000 euros profit you'd still lose 10% to commissions. The lower your profit the greater percentage you'd be losing. It seems most FCMs are offering commission of less than 2 euros per round trip on the FESX so unless you are trading very few round trips and youre making big money the commission is definitely a big issue.
123 Trading
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Hi Pento
Thanks for your answers,
Obviously if I can pay lower commissions, all the rest being the same, only if I was a fool would I go to a firm that would charge higher.
However, I would be willing to pay higher commissions in exchange for a trading platform in which I would trust 100%...
(but this was also your point)
Concerning “trading courses”, I do not trust them and to me they do not make any sense at all.
It is like popular wisdom: “Those who can, do. Those who can´t, teach!”
Sky74:
You are correct; the increase clip method seems also very appealing.
300GBP is not a bad price to have insurance so, have decided that I am going to have a go with them.
Fingers crossed, wish me luck.
Will keep you posted about my progress
Thanks for your answers,
Obviously if I can pay lower commissions, all the rest being the same, only if I was a fool would I go to a firm that would charge higher.
However, I would be willing to pay higher commissions in exchange for a trading platform in which I would trust 100%...
(but this was also your point)
Concerning “trading courses”, I do not trust them and to me they do not make any sense at all.
It is like popular wisdom: “Those who can, do. Those who can´t, teach!”
Sky74:
You are correct; the increase clip method seems also very appealing.
300GBP is not a bad price to have insurance so, have decided that I am going to have a go with them.
Fingers crossed, wish me luck.
Will keep you posted about my progress
Hi Pento
Thanks for your answers,
Obviously if I can pay lower commissions, all the rest being the same, only if I was a fool would I go to a firm that would charge higher.
However, I would be willing to pay higher commissions in exchange for a trading platform in which I would trust 100%...
(but this was also your point)
Concerning “trading courses”, I do not trust them and to me they do not make any sense at all.
It is like popular wisdom: “Those who can, do. Those who can´t, teach!”
Sky74:
You are correct; the increase clip method seems also very appealing.
300GBP is not a bad price to have insurance so, have decided that I am going to have a go with them.
Fingers crossed, wish me luck.
Will keep you posted about my progress
Are you reasonably certain you can attain the required amount of profit and sharpe ratio on the sim phase? Remember you are not going to learn anything from them so I'm guessing you shouldnt expect to perform better than you do currently.
I think I estimated that you would need to average 6 ticks a day to hit their target but I'm not sure what you need to do to make their min sharpe ratio. What I'm saying is that if you are not able to do that now then it might be better to continue on a free sim until you can. Remember your £300 is lost if you dont meet that target, even if you are profitable.
spy74
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I agree with Pboyles - while the Pulsar set-up could be worthwhile, and the ability to scale up with them is appealing, thier P&L and sharpes ratio/max drawdown requirements mean you shouldn't go in with a "fingers crossed" approach (not saying that you are of course!). I would ensure you can consistently achieve the results stipulated on their website on your own Sim first, then sign up with them and treat it a bit like a job interview.
