temptrader
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Mr Robbins is, lets all face it, a con man, like Vince Stanzione and Darren Winters. I remember once some guy saying that he made lots of money selling information products via mail order because "it has an unquantifiable value". And that's what people like them sell. Could they change your life? No, not really, you just think they do - like such and such psychobabble that they all spout out . . . I agree some people do need psychological counselling and help, but reading Robbins is like that when you are sane already and you just want to know that you are special - pass the sick bag. I wouldn't touch anything he produces with a barge pole
Check out this site:
Tony Robbins Plans Revealed
I am really sick and tired of these motivational speakers, they should all just grow up and get a life. And deep down I think Mr Robbins knows that he's conning people, just like Mr Stanzione and Mr Winters . . I certainly wouldn't like to trade my life for theirs knowing that they have to do this for their living, I would feel very guilty about it.
Also
That was a crap experiment by the BBC in order to boost ratings, and my did most people fell for it. It sort of a political moneouvre to help people feel better about themselves. Point is - look at such a small sample we actually have. If they had a much higher sample then maybe I would be inclined to agree. Also it begs the question about the people who do have the traits of these so called millionaire but never made it. And some of those who did become millionaires were just downright lucky, like the kid with the ring tones and the other one who was sole distributor for scooters. Yes they made money but it when you look at it from the perspective of those who tried similar ideas and FAILED it doesn't look impressive at all. For example for about 9 million people who play the lottery chances are at least one person will get lucky.
This is my second post. I like to tell you all that this site has been great and I've learned a few things or two here.
I'm not out to make a million but hope to learn enough to be able to trade consistently that I can make a comfortable amount so I can devote more of my time to studying. Hearing about idiots like Mr Robbins conning people makes me feel rather sad. My philosophy in life is that there is no mystery to it - just like there is no holy grail of trading. The fact that people read self help books, or seek motivational speakers reveals the depths of their insecurities.
Scripophilist
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Type one millionaires tend to get in the public eye because of their style and huge egos, they like to be seen.
Success and money does not breed everything and those that aspire to status without the wisdom are doomed to failure.
I recently left a company that I was contracted too. The business grew from £3m to £100m while I was there. It was hard work and I don't think I was amply rewarded for my effort (but that's my fault). At the end of the day I left because I no longer enjoyed it. Money can buy many things but not happiness. I guess I would be considered to be called wealthy but I don't make a fuss about it as it just causes problems whichever way you look at it.
Success and money does not breed everything and those that aspire to status without the wisdom are doomed to failure.
I recently left a company that I was contracted too. The business grew from £3m to £100m while I was there. It was hard work and I don't think I was amply rewarded for my effort (but that's my fault). At the end of the day I left because I no longer enjoyed it. Money can buy many things but not happiness. I guess I would be considered to be called wealthy but I don't make a fuss about it as it just causes problems whichever way you look at it.
TheBramble
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TempTrader - you seem to have a rather negative view of Robbins, and the entire Self-Help industry for that matter.
Have you had a bad experience with anyone in that industry specifically or just found it didn't work for you?
They're plying their trade jus the same as you and I are. There are a lot of swashbucklers out there - but they're not all con men.
Have you had a bad experience with anyone in that industry specifically or just found it didn't work for you?
They're plying their trade jus the same as you and I are. There are a lot of swashbucklers out there - but they're not all con men.
temptrader
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TheBramble,
I'm an amateur mathematician - soon to be professional in a very long time. I have what it takes but I need the time and the patience and the solitude. Trading interests me and I need to piece my mind together, learn about the indicators etc . .
I have got Vince's stuff (never went to the seminar) and perused through it to realise that it was total crap . . .
I hate people like Robbins because, to be blunt, they don't really deserve to be where they are and what they say can neither be proved nor disproved, it's all open to interpretation and the like from the minds of the listeners - and I rather not listen to the total crap they spout.
Self help is a totally wrong way of going about things, it just shows that you're insecure deep down. Everyone is insecure to be honest but we should all just live with that, instead of doping ourselves with false hopes that these motivational speakers claim to give us. It's not healthy so snap out of it people!
Van Tharp's a very good example. He writes books like "Trade yourself into financial independence" or whatever. The person doesn't even trade so what's the point of listening to him? What? So he's a psychologist so he might tell you about the psychological aspect of trading? Total utter rubbish! Let me tell you all first and foremost that you can have the best mental preparation in the world for trading but that would mean absolutely nothing if your trading plan does not work!!! If you read some of the review in Amazon about Van Tharp you know what I mean. Like one reviewer said: "why trade when you can teach?"
Vince Stanzione in his silly video seems to give us the impression that trading is 90% psychology or something, and that he's already given you the methods to be a millionaire. When I heard that I had alarm bells ringing.
Same for the book by Elder. I read it and will not read it again since it doesn't really offer anything that I can't learn from here. Also it's extremely badly written.
Me and a friend have a system on horse racing that sort of works, but the disadvantage is that you could only make about £70 a day on it, and once in a while it goes bad (you lose £140 once every 10 attempts). We got this system by careful study and always believing in it. But a few hours to earn £70 is not bad by any standards . . When we started out we used to get angry with the lossing but we always saw a light at the end of the tunnel. We learned, as the method got better and better, to take losses calmly. The method helped us come to terms with the losses, but if it had been wrong we would just simply walked away . . In the end the method has to be right - your psychology will follow. The hardest part is to find the method that works for you - not the psychology.
I'm an amateur mathematician - soon to be professional in a very long time. I have what it takes but I need the time and the patience and the solitude. Trading interests me and I need to piece my mind together, learn about the indicators etc . .
I have got Vince's stuff (never went to the seminar) and perused through it to realise that it was total crap . . .
I hate people like Robbins because, to be blunt, they don't really deserve to be where they are and what they say can neither be proved nor disproved, it's all open to interpretation and the like from the minds of the listeners - and I rather not listen to the total crap they spout.
Self help is a totally wrong way of going about things, it just shows that you're insecure deep down. Everyone is insecure to be honest but we should all just live with that, instead of doping ourselves with false hopes that these motivational speakers claim to give us. It's not healthy so snap out of it people!
Van Tharp's a very good example. He writes books like "Trade yourself into financial independence" or whatever. The person doesn't even trade so what's the point of listening to him? What? So he's a psychologist so he might tell you about the psychological aspect of trading? Total utter rubbish! Let me tell you all first and foremost that you can have the best mental preparation in the world for trading but that would mean absolutely nothing if your trading plan does not work!!! If you read some of the review in Amazon about Van Tharp you know what I mean. Like one reviewer said: "why trade when you can teach?"
Vince Stanzione in his silly video seems to give us the impression that trading is 90% psychology or something, and that he's already given you the methods to be a millionaire. When I heard that I had alarm bells ringing.
Same for the book by Elder. I read it and will not read it again since it doesn't really offer anything that I can't learn from here. Also it's extremely badly written.
Me and a friend have a system on horse racing that sort of works, but the disadvantage is that you could only make about £70 a day on it, and once in a while it goes bad (you lose £140 once every 10 attempts). We got this system by careful study and always believing in it. But a few hours to earn £70 is not bad by any standards . . When we started out we used to get angry with the lossing but we always saw a light at the end of the tunnel. We learned, as the method got better and better, to take losses calmly. The method helped us come to terms with the losses, but if it had been wrong we would just simply walked away . . In the end the method has to be right - your psychology will follow. The hardest part is to find the method that works for you - not the psychology.
temptrader
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nice try, chump, but no I can't reveal it to anyone since I did not discover it but he did. He's had a really bad spell of using it but it's settling down now.
I'm not here to sell any method to anyone. We all learn our own way - or fail in doing so. Such is life.
I'm not here to sell any method to anyone. We all learn our own way - or fail in doing so. Such is life.
TheBramble
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The problem is - a lot of people HAVE had a massive positive response to Robbins et al.
The fact you don't think much of it is interesting, but you're in the minority.
I'm not a Robbins fan myself, but I do respect the guy. He is one of the few who (I believe) is sincere.
'Doesn't deserve to be where they are' is kind of a stupid -position to take - They are where they are - regardless of anyone else's opinions - just as you are where you are.
The thing is, for those who are genuinely crap - they might hook a few, but ultimately, they'll go down.
For those few who do provide a genuine service/product - they'll do well. They'll of course have their detractors, but those people will be in the minority.
I have to say, I suspect Robbins is feeling a little better about his world tonight than you are about yours - which is a pity.
And you wouldn't swap...?
The fact you don't think much of it is interesting, but you're in the minority.
I'm not a Robbins fan myself, but I do respect the guy. He is one of the few who (I believe) is sincere.
'Doesn't deserve to be where they are' is kind of a stupid -position to take - They are where they are - regardless of anyone else's opinions - just as you are where you are.
The thing is, for those who are genuinely crap - they might hook a few, but ultimately, they'll go down.
For those few who do provide a genuine service/product - they'll do well. They'll of course have their detractors, but those people will be in the minority.
I have to say, I suspect Robbins is feeling a little better about his world tonight than you are about yours - which is a pity.
And you wouldn't swap...?
temptrader
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before this becomes a flaming match, I'll stand down. . .
Robbins, in common with most motivational speakers, has to offer something of worth. But this "worth", dear sir, cannot be measured. If you read the link I've given you'll know what I mean.
Let me put it this way and make my feelings about Robbins (and people like Stanzione and Winters for that matter) very clear: I don't feel hate towards them in the slightest - nor do I feel jealous of them for what they've earned. But I would be embarassed, and I mean EMBARASSED, to know that I took advice from people like them and was partially brainwashed by them for some time, because that's how I see what most of their motivational talk is about.
I'm not negative about life - nor am I positive about it either, I'm indifferent. I think everyone has the right to make of life the way they see it, and not be partially brainwashed into thinking that they can have what they want, because most of us won't and the humility of it when you accept that is when you start to grow up.
Let me speak from a scientist's point of view. If I wrote a paper tomorrow that was wrong my paper would be refused publication, simply because the referees would see error in my work, and I would feel grateful to them because I don't wish to publish false results.
The problem with certain people like Robbins is that there is no one to keep them in check. He's a very good salesman, like Stanzione and the others. They can make what I see are downright outrageous claims that cannot be "proven" for want of a better word. Like I said, it's like selling information material with "no quantifiable value".
If I've upset you then I'm sorry. Maybe I'm in the minority.
Robbins, in common with most motivational speakers, has to offer something of worth. But this "worth", dear sir, cannot be measured. If you read the link I've given you'll know what I mean.
Let me put it this way and make my feelings about Robbins (and people like Stanzione and Winters for that matter) very clear: I don't feel hate towards them in the slightest - nor do I feel jealous of them for what they've earned. But I would be embarassed, and I mean EMBARASSED, to know that I took advice from people like them and was partially brainwashed by them for some time, because that's how I see what most of their motivational talk is about.
I'm not negative about life - nor am I positive about it either, I'm indifferent. I think everyone has the right to make of life the way they see it, and not be partially brainwashed into thinking that they can have what they want, because most of us won't and the humility of it when you accept that is when you start to grow up.
Let me speak from a scientist's point of view. If I wrote a paper tomorrow that was wrong my paper would be refused publication, simply because the referees would see error in my work, and I would feel grateful to them because I don't wish to publish false results.
The problem with certain people like Robbins is that there is no one to keep them in check. He's a very good salesman, like Stanzione and the others. They can make what I see are downright outrageous claims that cannot be "proven" for want of a better word. Like I said, it's like selling information material with "no quantifiable value".
If I've upset you then I'm sorry. Maybe I'm in the minority.
Trader333
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temptrader,
I am interested to know why you think the above statement is true as from a trading standpoint you are in a minority thinking this ?
In view of the generally accepted situation that 80% of success in trading is psycholgical and that up to 95% of traders lose money, how does your belief reconcile this if all that is needed is a profitable trading method ?
Paul
I am interested to know why you think the above statement is true as from a trading standpoint you are in a minority thinking this ?
In view of the generally accepted situation that 80% of success in trading is psycholgical and that up to 95% of traders lose money, how does your belief reconcile this if all that is needed is a profitable trading method ?
Paul
temptrader
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Trader333,
I ran through quite a lot of your posts and really admire the stuff you posted. I have a few questions for you, but maybe some time later perhaps . . .
I did NOT say ALL that you need is a profitable trading method. What I'm trying to say is that it is a necessary FIRST major step, without which there is going to be no game. . . Ironically, come to think of it, you said the general view is that 80% of trading is psychology, yet 95% lose money - does that mean the general view is wrong or is this general view held by the 5% winners?
Any activity in between getting your method and starting out and constantly failing is the test and resolve of your strength and belief that you could do it, so I suppose it is psychology. But all the effort would be of no use if you never arrive at the method, see my point?
The take on VS and others talking about importance of psychology, from my point of view, is that they seem to be telling you that all you need is the right mind set and the method would follow. Like motivational speakers who say get the right attitude about like, don't be negative let down by losses etc. . and you're already there to a winning method. This frees them from telling you the stuff you should be reading about. . . Like the Elder book, it's like he's trying to hold your hand all the time. I don't want that. I want clear objective information.
I ran through quite a lot of your posts and really admire the stuff you posted. I have a few questions for you, but maybe some time later perhaps . . .
I did NOT say ALL that you need is a profitable trading method. What I'm trying to say is that it is a necessary FIRST major step, without which there is going to be no game. . . Ironically, come to think of it, you said the general view is that 80% of trading is psychology, yet 95% lose money - does that mean the general view is wrong or is this general view held by the 5% winners?
Any activity in between getting your method and starting out and constantly failing is the test and resolve of your strength and belief that you could do it, so I suppose it is psychology. But all the effort would be of no use if you never arrive at the method, see my point?
The take on VS and others talking about importance of psychology, from my point of view, is that they seem to be telling you that all you need is the right mind set and the method would follow. Like motivational speakers who say get the right attitude about like, don't be negative let down by losses etc. . and you're already there to a winning method. This frees them from telling you the stuff you should be reading about. . . Like the Elder book, it's like he's trying to hold your hand all the time. I don't want that. I want clear objective information.
temptrader,
Sorry, I don't like to be negative about anyone on here, but
In the words of TR - 'How do you do that?'
I'm no great expert on TR, but I've read one of his books and listened to some of his tapes. He's a SUPERB communicator, and can really make you feel positive about things - if you want to. I must admit though, seminars are too steep for me.
Come on, you love him really!
Please don't take offence, but have you actually studied anything by TR - with an open mind?
Don't know a thing about VS, but this thread started with TR. He is very specific that physiology / method is critical.
Regards,
Mute.
Sorry, I don't like to be negative about anyone on here, but
In the words of TR - 'How do you do that?'
I'm no great expert on TR, but I've read one of his books and listened to some of his tapes. He's a SUPERB communicator, and can really make you feel positive about things - if you want to. I must admit though, seminars are too steep for me.
Come on, you love him really!
Please don't take offence, but have you actually studied anything by TR - with an open mind?
Don't know a thing about VS, but this thread started with TR. He is very specific that physiology / method is critical.
Regards,
Mute.
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Bigbusiness
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Personally, I can't stand Tony Robbins. I have tried to listen to his stuff, if anyone has ptop software there is lots of "sharing" going on that might save a few £££££.
There have been some interesting TV programmes about him. Angus Deayton did a great interview with him in his series 'In Search of Happiness'. He didn't seem that impressed with him. There was a good programme on C4 a few years ago that really showed that a lot of his followers are completely transformed by him, but not necessarily in a good way. He might have a positive effect on some people but I think there are also some people who just don't get on well with his methods.
There have been some interesting TV programmes about him. Angus Deayton did a great interview with him in his series 'In Search of Happiness'. He didn't seem that impressed with him. There was a good programme on C4 a few years ago that really showed that a lot of his followers are completely transformed by him, but not necessarily in a good way. He might have a positive effect on some people but I think there are also some people who just don't get on well with his methods.
TheBramble
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temptrader said:
I don't see any flames - just an exchange of views.
Not sure who you think you may have upset, but I think it's unlikely.
TT - 'indifference to life' wouldn't get me leaping out of bed ready for a brand new day, each day, but it does illustrate the point I was trying to make.
Everyone (yourself included) has their own view of the world - and that's probably perfect for them - and may well work for them most of the time - unless and until they decide to chose to change it to something different.
This is where people like TR come into the picture. He does have a gift for helping people. AFAIAA he has made a positive difference to many thousands of peoples' lives.
As I've said, I'm not a fan, but neither am I a detractor.
As for VS and DW - a totally separate issue.
temptrader
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We can apply what we know about TR with what we know about people who claim to hold the key to a fool proof method that guarantees consistent profits. If someone had such a method why would he give it out and charge loads of money for it, since it would be irrelavant to do so.
If TR really believes that he can change people live's for the better, and nay maybe the world for the better, he has (and this is me speaking here) the moral obiligation to give it freely out to the world so that it is changed for the better and not charge people for it, the return on that will be worth more than any money in the world. The fact that he charges such a steep amount for it tells me something. . .
By contrast the works of the greatest mathematicians in the world are freely available, but to understand them requires a certain level of class on the reader.
Bigbusiness, I saw that program too, along with the BBC one. My only conclusion about it is that these people could reached their destination by other means, some of the rest were totally brainwashed.
If TR really believes that he can change people live's for the better, and nay maybe the world for the better, he has (and this is me speaking here) the moral obiligation to give it freely out to the world so that it is changed for the better and not charge people for it, the return on that will be worth more than any money in the world. The fact that he charges such a steep amount for it tells me something. . .
By contrast the works of the greatest mathematicians in the world are freely available, but to understand them requires a certain level of class on the reader.
Bigbusiness, I saw that program too, along with the BBC one. My only conclusion about it is that these people could reached their destination by other means, some of the rest were totally brainwashed.
TheBramble
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temptrader said:
That's pretty fuzzy logic by any stretch - and coming from a mathematician too...
I certainly agree with that. I think that's t2w members' consensus on commercial trading systems.
Yes, but as you say, that's just your view. Feeling good by giving something worthwhile to the world would be payment enough for you. (I don't know how that would cover your mortgage, but there you go.)
The majority of people who I've personally had contact with that 'bought' a TR product (tape/seminar/video/CD whatever) were satisfied with their purchase. So the exchange seems generally valid. TR likes to make money - lots of money. And why not? That's HIS thing.
I imagine most people on t2w want to make money - lots of money.
Isn't that why are you here?
TT,
I think you struggled a bit to communicate your thoughts of psychology etc in relation to trading . However, I agree with some of what I think you were trying to get across.
Correct me if I am wrong by all means. It seemed to me you were pointing out that simply telling someone how to take a different psychological approach in their trading will not of it's self change a losing system into a winning one? If so, on this point I would agree but !.
Consider what if the system was a 'winning' system, which was in fact losing only because the player could not execute the system ,because they were psychologically unsuited to that trading style? Now, if someone can train you to master the psychological deficit what then happens to the performance of that system?
I make this point,because I think you will find a high degree of consensus on the BB from experienced traders who will tell you that this type of situation is very common in trading.
I think you struggled a bit to communicate your thoughts of psychology etc in relation to trading . However, I agree with some of what I think you were trying to get across.
Correct me if I am wrong by all means. It seemed to me you were pointing out that simply telling someone how to take a different psychological approach in their trading will not of it's self change a losing system into a winning one? If so, on this point I would agree but !.
Consider what if the system was a 'winning' system, which was in fact losing only because the player could not execute the system ,because they were psychologically unsuited to that trading style? Now, if someone can train you to master the psychological deficit what then happens to the performance of that system?
I make this point,because I think you will find a high degree of consensus on the BB from experienced traders who will tell you that this type of situation is very common in trading.
TT, - I think this is an interesting discussion although we might be straying beyond the remit of T2T.
That said another question worth asking v briefly would be: do you consider ANY type of coaching worthwhile? I see Tony Robbins as just that. Mastery of wealth aside (which I know nothing about) his courses are designed to motivate people to make the best of what they have whether it's physically, mentally, etc etc. His goal (and pls correct me if wrong) is to push people to think about their lives and goals and ask themselves what is stopping them achieving the success they believe themselves to be capable of. In this sense he is no different to a sports coach. The specific goals will be different for each person.
DW and VS are different again. They convince people that the proven impossible isn't and that if only people worked hard enough or believed enough then they too could be very wealthy thru trading. . . . the same is true of many of the property con artists etc.
There is a fair and proper place for the likes of AR but DW and VS should be shut down - if what they do is not actually illegal (and I assume it isn't) then it is certainly immoral.
IMHO lumping them all together just isn't fair.
That said another question worth asking v briefly would be: do you consider ANY type of coaching worthwhile? I see Tony Robbins as just that. Mastery of wealth aside (which I know nothing about) his courses are designed to motivate people to make the best of what they have whether it's physically, mentally, etc etc. His goal (and pls correct me if wrong) is to push people to think about their lives and goals and ask themselves what is stopping them achieving the success they believe themselves to be capable of. In this sense he is no different to a sports coach. The specific goals will be different for each person.
DW and VS are different again. They convince people that the proven impossible isn't and that if only people worked hard enough or believed enough then they too could be very wealthy thru trading. . . . the same is true of many of the property con artists etc.
There is a fair and proper place for the likes of AR but DW and VS should be shut down - if what they do is not actually illegal (and I assume it isn't) then it is certainly immoral.
IMHO lumping them all together just isn't fair.
