A "First Steps" forum ? lol! Here is my advice: newbies, just quit !

Their goal is to take money from other traders by any means.
Whether thats front running, insider dealing, arbitrage or just plain experience.
At that level no doubt about it. Not that I know anything about it but from what I've read they sometimes have fair idea who they are up against.
It is very much a game for these guys largely because it's rarely their money.
For the small operator I think it is different.
 
Whether the failure rate statistic above is as high as the oft quoted 95% for retail traders - there is no way of knowing. What is clear though is that the failure rate is very high. Below I list some of the reasons for this.

a. The sub culture that surrounds trading as I intimated above suggests that you can ' get rick quick ' and work ' just five minutes day ' etc. This is plainly false and very misleading. It causes many to follow these apparent shortcuts letting their hope / greed cloud their common sense. If it looks too good to true - it usually is !

b. When they commence live trading - they simply don't know what it is they need to know and are distracted by false noises such as detailed in point a. above. They have no idea that actually trading isn't about getting involved in as many opportunities as possible - but about disregarding as many risks as possible to leave only the highest probability trading opportunities. This requires patience and discipline. It was Aristotle that said ' Patience is bitter - but it's fruit is sweet. '

The 1st goal of a trader should always be capital preservation, (Ie you have to be able to 'stay in the game ' through sensible and proven risk management techniques.) Only then can you achieve the 2nd goal which is to grow that capital. The 3rd task is to learn from every trade you place.

c. They are generally under funded and as a result of this (and greed) are over leveraged. Whilst the leveraging of margin can magnify gains it can magnify losses also. All too often they take advantage of the ridiculous levels of leverage willingly offered by the brokers and the result in more cases than not is that sooner or later they blow out their accounts and lose their trading margin.

d. They have no idea what a Trading Edge is, how to acquire one or what they then need to know about it in order to ensure that it throws up no surprises that can lead to problems, and a loss of trading margin.

e. They don't understand the psychological barriers that can prevent them from achieving their trading aims even with a proven Trading Edge. In his book Reminiscences Of A Stock Operator about the legendary Wall Street Trader Jesse Livermore, Edwin Lefevre suggests that one of the prime reasons most never make it is because;

i. When the natural human instinct is to hope - in trading you have to fear

ii. When the natural human instinct is to fear - in trading you have to hope

I.e: Most times the necessary cognitive responses required in trading run counter to the instinctive human ones. Furthermore when entering a market you have to be right at the right time, not right at the wrong time - because this is the same as being wrong. For example in a bullish market you have to know what the highest probability set-ups are to buy to profit from the rising price. If you buy in the wrong place and price corrects to the downside, even though it may resume it's rise you have been stopped out for a loss. You were right - the market was bullish - but you were right at the wrong time !

My experience is that developing the necessary 'trading psychology' can prove harder than mastering the technical stuff. Getting a proven consistently profitable way to trade (ie a Trading Edge) that can be relied upon to produce a regular income is one thing, but as the excellent Mark Douglas (Trading in the Zone, The Disciplined Trader etc) points out - it is the destructive effects of the human emotions connected with any discretionary trading that can lead to the ' Profit Gap, ' ie the difference between having a proven trading edge and actually being able to make a reliable and consistent income from it yourself. Of course the first step is to actually acquire a proven consistently profitable trading edge, but even given this - some never close this 'profit gap.'

G/L
 
I am reminded of Brett Steenbarger's 5 principles of trading:

Principle #1: Trading is a performance activity

Like the playing of a concert instrument or the playing of a sport, trading entails the application of knowledge and skills to real time performances and this is the core idea behind my most recent book. Success at trading, as with other performances, depends upon a developmental process in which intensive, structured practice and experience over an extended time yield competence and expertise. Many trading problems are attributable to attempts to succeed at trading prior to undergoing this learning process. My research suggests that professional traders account for well over three-quarters of all share and futures contract volume. It is impossible to sustain success against these professionals without honing one's performance--and by making sure that you don't lose your capital in the learning process. Confidence in one's trading comes from the mastery conferred by one's learning and development, not from psychological exercises or insights.

Principle #2: Success in trading is a function of talents and skills
Trading, in this sense, is no different from chess, Olympic events, or acting. Inborn abilities (talents) and developed competencies (skills) determine one's level of success. From rock bands to ballet dancers and golfers, only a small percentage of participants in any performance activity are good enough to sustain a living from their performances. The key to success is finding a seamless fit between one's talents/skills and the specific opportunities available in a performance field. For traders, this means finding a superior fit between your abilities and the specific markets and strategies you will be trading. Many performance problems are the result of a suboptimal fit between what the trader is good at and how the trader is trading.

Principle #3: The core skill of trading is pattern recognition
Whether the trader is visually inspecting charts or analyzing signals statistically, pattern recognition lies at the heart of trading. The trader is trying to identify shifts in demand and supply in real time and is responding to patterns that are indicative of such shifts. Most of the different approaches to trading--technical and fundamental analysis, cycles, econometrics, quantitative historical analysis, Market Profile--are simply methods for conceptualizing patterns at different time frames. Traders will benefit most from those methods that fit well with their cognitive styles and strengths. A person adept at visual processing, with superior visual memory, might benefit from the use of charts in framing patterns. Someone who is highly analytical might benefit from statistical studies and mechanical signals.

Principle #4: Much pattern recognition is based on implicit learning
Implicit learning occurs when people are repeatedly exposed to complex patterns and eventually internalize those, even though they cannot verbalize the rules underlying those patterns. This is how children learn language and grammar, and it is how we learn to navigate our way through complex social interactions. Implicit learning manifests itself as a "feel" for a performance activity and facilitates a rapidity of pattern recognition that would not be possible through ordinary analysis. Even system developers, who rely upon explicit signals for trading, report that their frequent exposure to data gives them a feel for which variables will be promising and which will not during their testing. Research tells us that implicit learning only occurs after we have undergone thousands of learning trials. This is why trading competence--like competence at other performance activities such as piloting a fighter jet and chess--requires considerable practice and exposure to realistic scenarios. Without such immersive exposure, traders never truly internalize the patterns in their markets and time frames.

Principle #5: Emotional, cognitive, and physical factors disrupt access to patterns we have acquired implicitly
Once a performer has developed skills and moved along the path toward competence and expertise, psychology becomes important in sustaining consistency of performance. Many performance disruptions are caused when shifts in our cognitive, emotional, and/or physical states obscure the felt tendencies and intuitions that lie at the heart of implicit learning. This most commonly occurs as a result of performance anxiety--our fears about the outcome of our performance interfere with the access to the knowledge and skills needed to facilitate that performance. Such performance disruptions also commonly occur when traders trade positions that are too large for their accounts and/or do not maintain sound risk management with their positions. The large P/L swings cause shifts in emotional states that interfere with the (implicit) processing of market data. Cognitive, behavioral, and biofeedback methods can be very useful in teaching traders skills for maintaining the "Yoda state" of calm concentration needed to access implicit knowledge.

The most important question I can ask an aspiring trader is: Are you engaged in a structured training process? Education--simply reading articles in magazines, websites, blogs, and books--is important, but it is not training. Training is the systematic work on oneself to build skills and hone performance. It requires constant feedback about your performance--what is working and what isn't--and it requires a steady process of drilling skills until they become automatic. No amount of talking with a coach or counselor will substitute for the training process: not in trading, not in athletics, and not in the dramatic arts. Training yourself to proficiency is the path to a positive psychology.
 
The patience and discipline thing is absolutely vital and most can't master it....for eg: Loook at spot gbpusd this morning so far - a 29 pip range inbetween the Friday hi 5860 and the Friday pullback lo off that Hi-5816. Now I have only seen 1 hi-probability trading opportunity since 0730am this morning and that was the re-test of the previous 1hr swing lo zone created by that pullback lo..other than that - nothing in over 2.5 hrs of being sat at the desk.

Of course there is a good chance of an upside follow thru on Friday's bullish thrust candle/last week's weekly bullish engulf candle (at some point.)

G/L
 

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Ok I'm adding two more....
8. The ability to take a positive from a crushing negative (the ability to come back).
9. Totally ignore the good feeling from a good win.
 
Hi bbmac,

my point is that an efficient trader knows his/her stuff. This is because they have proceeded down the correct path (eventually) after a realisation that this is more about oneself than "conquering the market".

So an efficient trader knows that the current state of the pound/dollar is in a wait zone until we move up later on (from a high probability POV). Whats more, an advanced trader could have switched to channel mode this morning to trade the range (but this takes time and experience and the correct platform to understand the various stages of the market development).

People should focus on what needs to be done to achieve their goals rather than posting a long list of what it takes to fail and ultimately become bitter because of this experience.
 
The main reason most newbies fail is because we are set up phychologicaly to fail at trading, there are many reasons for this but an example is letting losers run and cutting winners short.

Agree with Douglas when he says trading is 80% phychological 20% method,wish I had read his book (the disciplined trader) a long time ago.
 
So... some say it is profitable.... some not... haha I will keep on virtual operations... I wont put a real buck on the markets after finding out by myself if this is really working or not!!

Anyway...I like trading!! Maybe because it looks like poker (in which btw, only 5% of the players win), making decisions using statistics and information to win money!! I like it also because it embraces economy knowledge and stuff so i also get educated!

For me its like a game now... i was hoping it could be a profitable game though :(

Thanks for the advices!!
 
Hi bbmac,

my point is that an efficient trader knows his/her stuff. This is because they have proceeded down the correct path (eventually) after a realisation that this is more about oneself than "conquering the market".

So an efficient trader knows that the current state of the pound/dollar is in a wait zone until we move up later on (from a high probability POV). Whats more, an advanced trader could have switched to channel mode this morning to trade the range (but this takes time and experience and the correct platform to understand the various stages of the market development).

People should focus on what needs to be done [/U]to achieve their goals rather than posting a long list of what it takes to fail and ultimately become bitter because of this experience.


Just a thought; most come into trading and are totally focused on "winning". However, if we used our energy to understand what it takes to lose, we may do better, or at least give ourselves a better chance to avoid losing. I wonder how many actually approach trading from this angle?
 
Just a thought; most come into trading and are totally focused on "winning". However, if we used our energy to understand what it takes to lose, we may do better, or at least give ourselves a better chance to avoid losing. I wonder how many actually approach trading from this angle?


Not only this, there are different stories to be read and told, ranging from Dan Zanger (love that name), to T2Ws very own who post trades and results etc. All different types of people with differring views and ways. It's obviously not something that is black and white, but we all try to explain it as black and white, and maybe that is fundamentally wrong.:?:
 
Wow, that is a great post. You really can't be reminded of these things too often.

Excellent stuff (y).

Whether the failure rate statistic above is as high as the oft quoted 95% for retail traders - there is no way of knowing. What is clear though is that the failure rate is very high. Below I list some of the reasons for this.

a. The sub culture that surrounds trading as I intimated above suggests that you can ' get rick quick ' and work ' just five minutes day ' etc. This is plainly false and very misleading. It causes many to follow these apparent shortcuts letting their hope / greed cloud their common sense. If it looks too good to true - it usually is !

b. When they commence live trading - they simply don't know what it is they need to know and are distracted by false noises such as detailed in point a. above. They have no idea that actually trading isn't about getting involved in as many opportunities as possible - but about disregarding as many risks as possible to leave only the highest probability trading opportunities. This requires patience and discipline. It was Aristotle that said ' Patience is bitter - but it's fruit is sweet. '

The 1st goal of a trader should always be capital preservation, (Ie you have to be able to 'stay in the game ' through sensible and proven risk management techniques.) Only then can you achieve the 2nd goal which is to grow that capital. The 3rd task is to learn from every trade you place.

c. They are generally under funded and as a result of this (and greed) are over leveraged. Whilst the leveraging of margin can magnify gains it can magnify losses also. All too often they take advantage of the ridiculous levels of leverage willingly offered by the brokers and the result in more cases than not is that sooner or later they blow out their accounts and lose their trading margin.

d. They have no idea what a Trading Edge is, how to acquire one or what they then need to know about it in order to ensure that it throws up no surprises that can lead to problems, and a loss of trading margin.

e. They don't understand the psychological barriers that can prevent them from achieving their trading aims even with a proven Trading Edge. In his book Reminiscences Of A Stock Operator about the legendary Wall Street Trader Jesse Livermore, Edwin Lefevre suggests that one of the prime reasons most never make it is because;

i. When the natural human instinct is to hope - in trading you have to fear

ii. When the natural human instinct is to fear - in trading you have to hope

I.e: Most times the necessary cognitive responses required in trading run counter to the instinctive human ones. Furthermore when entering a market you have to be right at the right time, not right at the wrong time - because this is the same as being wrong. For example in a bullish market you have to know what the highest probability set-ups are to buy to profit from the rising price. If you buy in the wrong place and price corrects to the downside, even though it may resume it's rise you have been stopped out for a loss. You were right - the market was bullish - but you were right at the wrong time !

My experience is that developing the necessary 'trading psychology' can prove harder than mastering the technical stuff. Getting a proven consistently profitable way to trade (ie a Trading Edge) that can be relied upon to produce a regular income is one thing, but as the excellent Mark Douglas (Trading in the Zone, The Disciplined Trader etc) points out - it is the destructive effects of the human emotions connected with any discretionary trading that can lead to the ' Profit Gap, ' ie the difference between having a proven trading edge and actually being able to make a reliable and consistent income from it yourself. Of course the first step is to actually acquire a proven consistently profitable trading edge, but even given this - some never close this 'profit gap.'

G/L
 
Another very good post. If I may, would you care to outline the basics of your approach to give members some idea of what a profitable strategy might involve (do you use charts, ladder, timescale etc)?

I had to chuckle at (and whole-heartedly agree with) the "obsession" point. I genuinely think that is what it takes - it certainly has been in my case.


I understand your sentiments and I think for the majority of people you are probably right. However, I am making a tidy sum these days and despite the odd curve ball the market throws at me I’m feeling pretty optimistic about the future. BUT it has been a long journey with plenty of highs and lows and has taken countless hours of my time.

For me it has been an obsession, most of my private thoughts are to do with trading and analysing what if’s and different scenarios. I’ve often thought about whether if someone asked if I would recommend it as a hobby/career – I would probably say no to most people. However – I don’t regret a single minute of my losses/failures as they were a valuable education and I wouldn’t want to deny someone of a similar determination the opportunity.

For me, attending a course was never a consideration, buying an EA a ridiculous idea, I wanted to figure it out all for myself – and I really think you need to be that sort of person to succeed in training. Being able to be honest with yourself and recognise you own inadequacies is vitally important to. For instance, I am no better than flipping a coin to predict future market direction, and that is now factored into my trading method, it’s adapted to my personal strengths.

This is just a personal view – but if you fit all the criteria below then I say go for it, otherwise think seriously – because trading may not be for you.

1. You have spare cash that if you lost, it would make no difference to your life.
2. You’ve never been tempted to buy a trading course or an Expert Advisor
3. You have/had a hobby or skill that took many years of dedication and lots of practise to master (e.g. musical instrument)
4. You were always more interesting in making things and how they were made than actually using them (e.g. computer games/bikes/cars)
5. Ability to recognise your own faults. (most people I know are incapable of this).
 
So far we have nine good qualities for a winning trader.

1. You have spare cash that if you lost, it would make no difference to your life.
2. You’ve never been tempted to buy a trading course or an Expert Advisor
3. You have/had a hobby or skill that took many years of dedication and lots of practise to master (e.g. musical instrument)
4. You were always more interesting in making things and how they were made than actually using them (e.g. computer games/bikes/cars)
5. The ability to recognise your own faults. (most people I know are incapable of this).
6. The ability to recognise that markets are not fair or equal, and understand why.
7. Accept that trading is a business, the successful participants will do everything to preserve their money.
8. The ability to take a positive from a crushing negative (the ability to come back).
9. Totally ignore the good feeling from a good win.
 
A few years back I put together a simple trading system. I would measure the number of volatility break outs on the London markets and plot them against the FTSE price, a real easy peasy system and with the help of some other indicators it worked. I tested it over 1½ years by paper trading and although it only gave 1 or 2 signals each month it never lost! I was so pleased with this little system I finally took some money out of the bank and placed my first trade. The system had it’s first loss with that first trade and I got hammered. Now I had some other things going on at the time so I never went back to that system but when I think about it now the only thing that was different when I placed that first trade was that I was actually on the market (not paper) and of course if they can see your stop they come get it. That makes me think that demo accounts, paper trading ect is a waste of time because you are not actually trading. Even back testing for me is a waste of time because of all the different dynamics that can not possibly be factored in. Demo accounts are good practice for opening, closing and managing a position but when you go live trading it’s a whole new ball game. The only thing that matters is NOW.
 
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