Yamato
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This section of the forum is a gold mine. You will learn so much when people are given a chance to talk freely, opening up, and are confident it's their own thread so they won't be interrupted too often, or bothered. I found this great thread of this great person:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-journals/60252-trial-errors-journal.html
Yes, sure he describes how he lost 9000 pounds in a few weeks, but he's honest, sincere, open, and hard working in the sense that he's willing to share details, passion and efforts he's making. I find him great particularly because he describes perfectly the feeling that many of us have in our first years of trading. It seems easy, and we lose all our money very quickly.
So here is where I start my own journal, which I won't write every day, but only whenever I'll have some ideas and I can't find any better places to write them down (like on a specific thread where the ideas may fit better).
Up until recently discretionary trading seemed easy to me just like it does to the author of the above mentioned journal. This is how I lost about 50 thousand euros during 12 years, one thousand at a time, more or less. I've kep on doing discretionary trading for the whole of these past 12 years, despite losing every month. This tells you that I am much sicker than the average trading addict.
Anyway, in these 12 years, one way or another, I did manage to do something good in the meanwhile, while losing a few hundred euros a month with my discretionary trading (on average 350). What I did is I developed a few automated trading systems, that make money, and have been making money for a couple of years now. Problem is at the same time I kept on doing discretionary trading (on and off until a few days ago), because I kept trying to find a profitable method. It was like a personal challenge - something I must find out how to do after all these years. But nobody forces me to find out with real money, when I can use all the paper trading account. By the way this is the mistake I made for 12 years, and it's the same mistake that the author of the above mentioned journal has been making as well.
So, just to clarify on the important info on whether right now I am a profitable trader or not, I will say that I have been profitable for 2 years, but have lost almost all profits made via automated trading with my discretionary trading addiction.
That "addiction" or just "activity", has been decreasing lately. The more I find out with forward testing how good my systems are, the less I feel the need to "help" (and hurt) my profit with discretionary trading.
This illusion of always being on the verge of profitability with my discretionary trading has been kept alive for so long for the specific way I lose with my discretionary trading. I am profitable on 4 trades out of 5, and I lose everything I've made and more on my fifth trade. Needless to say, I hardly use any stoplosses, and certainly I can't say that I have a method, because if one is not profitable he also cannot say he has one method, because he keeps on changing his methods in order to find one that is profitable. And maybe that's the major mistake that one is prone to make with discretionary trading, because the fact that you're not profitable today, does not mean that method isn't profitable, and yet you won't find out if it was a good one if tomorrow you change method because today that method made you lose money.
This catch-22 (you won't be profitable until you'll have a method, but you won't subscribe to a method until you'll see profit all the time) happens because in our minds we can't keep track of exactly which methods we are using, and we can't keep track of how much money (in the days, months, years) that specific method has yielded us. So it's very hard to find a trader who'll stick to a method, realizing that it is profitable despite occasional losses. Unless someone else tells him, which would make things easier.
All this doesn't happen with automated trading: tradestation, excel, or another program, are there to help you keep track of exactly what method makes what profit. And you certainly will not use a method that is not profitable. This is why a discretionary trader could never become profitable (which is my case, so far), and an automated trader could be profitable from the beginning (which is also my case). If you add to this that with discretionary trading you can start without knowing anything about the markets or having to do any homework, whereas with automated trading before you can start you have to work your ass off for two years with programming and testing, then you know why I keep on repeating that automated trading is far superior to discretionary trading, and how it's much more easier to be profitable with it. And for today I am done with my "general purpose" preaching. Later I will write my actual diary with what's been happening lately in my trading.
----
Some thoughts about the non-importance of psychology
What's the point of stressing so much the importance of psychology that I keep on seeing in the trading world? If you have a profitable method, you don't need psychology. And if you don't have a profitable method, psychology won't help you. The only psychology you need is to make sure you don't keep on trading with real money, when you don't have a profitable method. In other words, do not commit suicide as a trader. In other words, if you someone in your family, who, on a daily basis, is throwing money out the window, you send them to the psychiatrist. But psychology is useless otherwise.
To all these psychology preachers I say: give me a profitable method, don't help me understand myself, and you'll fix my psychological problems immediately. But you know what: maybe they know nothing about a profitable method, or are not willing to share it. Ok, fine - but then don't pretend you're trying to help me out.
-----
What's been happening lately in my trading
Well, what's been happening...
Basically all these systems I am using, as many as 24, make money every single week, maybe with one slightly red week every two months. But then also guess what. Say for example that my systems made x dollars in the past month. With my discretionary trading I've lost x dollars (that same amount). Sounds crazy? It's the truth. If you add that I keep on taking money out for my living expenses, you see why my trading account is actually shrinking, to the point that I cannot trade all the systems anymore, but am limited to the best ones (hopefully I identified them correctly).
I am gonna hang in there and hope for the best. It would be a great step ahead if I finally understood once and for all that discretionary trading with real money and without a profitable method doesn't make sense (especially if a reliable paper trading account is available, which is the case). This insane "addiction" to trading has been decreasing at least.
I began in 1997.
From 1997 till 2007 all I did was discretionary trading (and losing), while developing at the same time my trading systems.
In 2008, I did both: losing with discretionary trading and making money with automated trading, without even making a point of NOT engaging in discretionary trading and thinking I was "helping" my systems.
In 2009, I've realized the problem and have been trying to solve it, but don't think I have yet.
Two major problems I face are these:
1) It's hard to accept that since I created profitable systems I am actually still unable to trade profitable without them.
2) It's hard to accept the feeling of quitting for me. There's the good feeling of quitting an addiction, but there's a bad feeling of quitting an endeavor, especially when I feel that I am this close and when I feel that I could use the extra money made with discretionary trading.
However, there's also no excuse for not paper trading until you're sure that you've found something that works. I have been too arrogant in thinking for all this time that I was ready to make money, and that's why I never learned maybe. Too impatient and cocky. I wonder if I can learn from my mistakes, or if maybe I just don't want to make money and wish to stay at breakeven forever. But this latter could just be an excuse for justifying my lack of profitability by saying "if I don't make money, it's only because I don't want to", just like children say "i didn't even try, or I would have won". One should be careful when speaking of "self-sabotage" because it's unlikely to be the case, and it's more likely to be a bull**** explanation.
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-journals/60252-trial-errors-journal.html
Yes, sure he describes how he lost 9000 pounds in a few weeks, but he's honest, sincere, open, and hard working in the sense that he's willing to share details, passion and efforts he's making. I find him great particularly because he describes perfectly the feeling that many of us have in our first years of trading. It seems easy, and we lose all our money very quickly.
So here is where I start my own journal, which I won't write every day, but only whenever I'll have some ideas and I can't find any better places to write them down (like on a specific thread where the ideas may fit better).
Up until recently discretionary trading seemed easy to me just like it does to the author of the above mentioned journal. This is how I lost about 50 thousand euros during 12 years, one thousand at a time, more or less. I've kep on doing discretionary trading for the whole of these past 12 years, despite losing every month. This tells you that I am much sicker than the average trading addict.
Anyway, in these 12 years, one way or another, I did manage to do something good in the meanwhile, while losing a few hundred euros a month with my discretionary trading (on average 350). What I did is I developed a few automated trading systems, that make money, and have been making money for a couple of years now. Problem is at the same time I kept on doing discretionary trading (on and off until a few days ago), because I kept trying to find a profitable method. It was like a personal challenge - something I must find out how to do after all these years. But nobody forces me to find out with real money, when I can use all the paper trading account. By the way this is the mistake I made for 12 years, and it's the same mistake that the author of the above mentioned journal has been making as well.
So, just to clarify on the important info on whether right now I am a profitable trader or not, I will say that I have been profitable for 2 years, but have lost almost all profits made via automated trading with my discretionary trading addiction.
That "addiction" or just "activity", has been decreasing lately. The more I find out with forward testing how good my systems are, the less I feel the need to "help" (and hurt) my profit with discretionary trading.
This illusion of always being on the verge of profitability with my discretionary trading has been kept alive for so long for the specific way I lose with my discretionary trading. I am profitable on 4 trades out of 5, and I lose everything I've made and more on my fifth trade. Needless to say, I hardly use any stoplosses, and certainly I can't say that I have a method, because if one is not profitable he also cannot say he has one method, because he keeps on changing his methods in order to find one that is profitable. And maybe that's the major mistake that one is prone to make with discretionary trading, because the fact that you're not profitable today, does not mean that method isn't profitable, and yet you won't find out if it was a good one if tomorrow you change method because today that method made you lose money.
This catch-22 (you won't be profitable until you'll have a method, but you won't subscribe to a method until you'll see profit all the time) happens because in our minds we can't keep track of exactly which methods we are using, and we can't keep track of how much money (in the days, months, years) that specific method has yielded us. So it's very hard to find a trader who'll stick to a method, realizing that it is profitable despite occasional losses. Unless someone else tells him, which would make things easier.
All this doesn't happen with automated trading: tradestation, excel, or another program, are there to help you keep track of exactly what method makes what profit. And you certainly will not use a method that is not profitable. This is why a discretionary trader could never become profitable (which is my case, so far), and an automated trader could be profitable from the beginning (which is also my case). If you add to this that with discretionary trading you can start without knowing anything about the markets or having to do any homework, whereas with automated trading before you can start you have to work your ass off for two years with programming and testing, then you know why I keep on repeating that automated trading is far superior to discretionary trading, and how it's much more easier to be profitable with it. And for today I am done with my "general purpose" preaching. Later I will write my actual diary with what's been happening lately in my trading.
----
Some thoughts about the non-importance of psychology
What's the point of stressing so much the importance of psychology that I keep on seeing in the trading world? If you have a profitable method, you don't need psychology. And if you don't have a profitable method, psychology won't help you. The only psychology you need is to make sure you don't keep on trading with real money, when you don't have a profitable method. In other words, do not commit suicide as a trader. In other words, if you someone in your family, who, on a daily basis, is throwing money out the window, you send them to the psychiatrist. But psychology is useless otherwise.
To all these psychology preachers I say: give me a profitable method, don't help me understand myself, and you'll fix my psychological problems immediately. But you know what: maybe they know nothing about a profitable method, or are not willing to share it. Ok, fine - but then don't pretend you're trying to help me out.
-----
What's been happening lately in my trading
Well, what's been happening...
Basically all these systems I am using, as many as 24, make money every single week, maybe with one slightly red week every two months. But then also guess what. Say for example that my systems made x dollars in the past month. With my discretionary trading I've lost x dollars (that same amount). Sounds crazy? It's the truth. If you add that I keep on taking money out for my living expenses, you see why my trading account is actually shrinking, to the point that I cannot trade all the systems anymore, but am limited to the best ones (hopefully I identified them correctly).
I am gonna hang in there and hope for the best. It would be a great step ahead if I finally understood once and for all that discretionary trading with real money and without a profitable method doesn't make sense (especially if a reliable paper trading account is available, which is the case). This insane "addiction" to trading has been decreasing at least.
I began in 1997.
From 1997 till 2007 all I did was discretionary trading (and losing), while developing at the same time my trading systems.
In 2008, I did both: losing with discretionary trading and making money with automated trading, without even making a point of NOT engaging in discretionary trading and thinking I was "helping" my systems.
In 2009, I've realized the problem and have been trying to solve it, but don't think I have yet.
Two major problems I face are these:
1) It's hard to accept that since I created profitable systems I am actually still unable to trade profitable without them.
2) It's hard to accept the feeling of quitting for me. There's the good feeling of quitting an addiction, but there's a bad feeling of quitting an endeavor, especially when I feel that I am this close and when I feel that I could use the extra money made with discretionary trading.
However, there's also no excuse for not paper trading until you're sure that you've found something that works. I have been too arrogant in thinking for all this time that I was ready to make money, and that's why I never learned maybe. Too impatient and cocky. I wonder if I can learn from my mistakes, or if maybe I just don't want to make money and wish to stay at breakeven forever. But this latter could just be an excuse for justifying my lack of profitability by saying "if I don't make money, it's only because I don't want to", just like children say "i didn't even try, or I would have won". One should be careful when speaking of "self-sabotage" because it's unlikely to be the case, and it's more likely to be a bull**** explanation.