Schneider Trading Associates: Graduate Training Program

Has anyone here take a job with Schneider's on their Graduate Training Program?
(Note: This is NOT the course where you have to pay £5k.)

I am due to start in their London Office on 5th November on their 1 month training course. We were informed during the interview that those of us who successfully complete the course, are put on the trading floor with a 70% profit share.

However, I have been reading the mixed reports on this company on this board and wanted to know if anyone is working (or has ever worked) at this arcade. If so, could you answer a few questions;

1. What strategies do they teach?
   A guy asked during the interview and it looks like box and calendar spreads were the name of their game.
2. How much does your seat cost?
   I assume that the 70% is after they take away the cost of your workstation.
3. What did you thing of Schneiders overall?
   Is it a good move for someone who has other options?

Many thanks in advance.

Richie

RichieE said:

What strategies do they teach?
A guy asked during the interview and it looks like box and calendar spreads were the name of their game.

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most backed deals where you trade with company money will be trading intermarket spreads such as Bund/Bobl or calendar spread arb strategies in STIR futures such as Euribor and SSterling.

This is because these strategies are relatively low risk and generate a comparatively high level of spins, which is of course one of the revenue streams for the company that is backing you.

You wont find many prop firms who teach/back outrights unless you already have a proven strategy already.

You should check what you commish/spin is - if you're doing spreads against spreads in the calendars, the rate you pay will make quite a difference to your PnL because your tick/spin ratio will be quite high.

RichieE said:

How much does your seat cost?
I assume that the 70% is after they take away the cost of your workstation.

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Dunno about STA but monthly seat least depends on the kit and software you need to use. Typical monthly cost will be around £1750 including TT lease, maybe more if you need autospreader or bloomberg etc.

Yes, profit split is always after all costs, comms & desk fee's.

Do they start charging you for your seat as soon as you start trading, or do you have a grace period while you get up and running? The desk fee for a new trader can be a fairly big hurdle to clear each month in the initial stages - this is one of the reasons you can expect to not make anything for at least six months, because you will not be working much size in the markets in the early stages, and you still have to break £1700+ to break even.

RichieE said:

What did you thing of Schneiders overall?
Is it a good move for someone who has other options?

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STA are certainly one of the bigger shops in the city and I gather their new offices are quite nice, I havent really heard anything bad about them or Sonny.

What are your other options? If McDonalds is one of them, I'd certainly think about giving STA my best shot :cheesy:

Thanks for the input Arbitrageur... as for the following...

Arbitrageur said:

What are your other options? If McDonalds is one of them, I'd certainly think about giving STA my best shot :cheesy:

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My other options are to work for another market data vendor (I was working for one before). Or to get a job in the front office of a major sell-side bank building their spreadsheets with a view to jump to a trading role.

Comments?

Richie

Hi Richie,
STA have a good training course, worth going if you have the time. quite intensive at times and a little boring at times too, but yes, they teach calendar spreads on STIRS Euribor.... in actual fact, they dont teach you much strategies at all, mainly basic trading stuff such as fundamentals, money/risk management and the market you will be trading ie european government debt.

ps. dont get your hopes up of being selected at the end as they turf out most people and you can stay if you put up 5k of your own capital in the end.
in the end it would be worth giving it a go if you get fully backed by them. nothin to lose

MMTrader said:

Hi Richie,
STA have a good training course, worth going if you have the time...

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Thanks for the reply MMTrader. Are you speaking for first hand experience? Have you been on the course yourself? If so, are you still at STA or have you moved on?

Richie

Alrite Richie,

Ive been offered the STA training too, Jan 2008 start.

It does sound like ‘’prop idol’’, where if they think you’re good enough they keep you at the end. I checked about paying for the course which for me would be a no go, but Im not sure whether you have to put up any money if you want to stay!?

I think its prob worth a shot as I have a friend who was a prop trader at Atlas futures, stayed a year but made no money, just broke even and finished after a year. He said it was the best job he’d had. It seems if you’re in the right position, financially etc its worth a go.

Have you heard anything else about them?

A couple of my more experienced friends who’ve Ive spoken too generally seem to think go else where if the options there, and they seem right, just due to job security and regular pay but I guess that would be boring!

mikeyboy24 said:

Alrite Richie,

Ive been offered the STA training too, Jan 2008 start.

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Congrats

mikeyboy24 said:

It does sound like ‘’prop idol’’, where if they think you’re good enough they keep you at the end.

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That sounds exactly like what I've been told. From what I gather 25 people start and about 10 are left at the end of the 1 month training.

mikeyboy24 said:

I checked about paying for the course which for me would be a no go, but Im not sure whether you have to put up any money if you want to stay!?

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I was told that wasn't mandatory, but obviously you get proportionally more of the upside if you add your own money into the mix.

mikeyboy24 said:

I think its prob worth a shot as I have a friend who was a prop trader at Atlas futures, stayed a year but made no money, just broke even and finished after a year. He said it was the best job he’d had. It seems if you’re in the right position, financially etc its worth a go.

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Why does your friend say that it's the best job he'd [ever] had if he made no money?

mikeyboy24 said:

Have you heard anything else about them?

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I don't know anyone who works or who has ever worked for them. However, an ex-trader friend of mine has been looking into these houses and rates STA and TCA but he wasn't specific about why.

mikeyboy24 said:

A couple of my more experienced friends who’ve Ive spoken too generally seem to think go else where if the options there and they seem right, just due to job security and regular pay but I guess that would be boring!

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I'm assuming you mean if the options are there (as ub alternative job offers) verses a bank I would agree, against another prop house I don't see why you would avoid Schneiders.

No dissenters have been in contact so far...

Hi Richie / Mikey

how are you doing there? any news? I've heard fairly good things about STA (compared to some of the other shops, anyway). Any updates on how you're getting on would be appreciated by many here, I believe. In particular, any experiences about how they deal with post-training course traders would be welcome.

Cheers

S

swltch said:

Hi Richie / Mikey

how are you doing there? any news? I've heard fairly good things about STA (compared to some of the other shops, anyway). Any updates on how you're getting on would be appreciated by many here, I believe. In particular, any experiences about how they deal with post-training course traders would be welcome.

Cheers

S

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I don't know how Mikey's doing. (Mikey, if you're out there let us know!). I was given a fully backed position at the end of the course. I traded in Dec and Jan with only one losing day. I started with one contract at a time, then two, then eventually four.

My P&L progression was going well, however at the rate I was going it would be at least 3 or 4 months before I could take home a decent takehome. Obviously that's assuming no disasters!

Unfortunately I have a mortage and bills to pay. At the time I was offered the job with Schneiders I was also offered an another job with a salary too good to turn down. I came to a comprimise with Schneiders that I would take a year off to pay the bills so the door is open for me to return.

RichieE said:

I don't know how Mikey's doing. (Mikey, if you're out there let us know!). I was given a fully backed position at the end of the course. I traded in Dec and Jan with only one losing day. I started with one contract at a time, then two, then eventually four.

My P&L progression was going well, however at the rate I was going it would be at least 3 or 4 months before I could take home a decent takehome. Obviously that's assuming no disasters!

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Did you have any experience before you started? What advice would you give to someone who was planning to do the same thing after graduating?

My advice would be don't do it unless your taught by a professional to trade outrights properly using Technical Analysis etc and there are very few who are good enough to make money trading outrights.Spread trading at the arcades is very hard now as there is no real edge anymore, especially in the STIRS.Most of the locals I know are changing products eg energy or getting out the game.

welco11 said:

My advice would be don't do it unless your taught by a professional to trade outrights properly using Technical Analysis etc and there are very few who are good enough to make money trading outrights.Spread trading at the arcades is very hard now as there is no real edge anymore, especially in the STIRS.Most of the locals I know are changing products eg energy or getting out the game.

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I'm already teaching myself how to trade outrights with TA - do you know of any arcades/prop firms which do this?

fifty2aces said:

Did you have any experience before you started?

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Not really... I worked for Bloomberg for 7 years in various roles but never traded properly before.

fifty2aces said:

What advice would you give to someone who was planning to do the same thing after graduating?

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I am probably not the right person to ask as I already had a career when I decided to give this a try. However, my thoughts are the following;

1. Try getting into a bank first.
Working in a bank will give you a salary and you will learn using someone else's money... NOT yours.

2. Can you go without a salary for a year?
If the answer is yes, then by all means try making it in a prop house. There are people I know who haven't drawn a salary for 9-12 months due to the subprime crisis. So be aware that this could happen to you.

3. What are you going to do if you don't make it?
Have a backup plan. Most people don't make it in prop trading. Have an exit strategy ready. It is easier to explain a year out if you're just coming out of university. In my case I would have to explain a career break.

4. Prop trading is NOT a natural stepping stone into a bank
Although I know of one person who has managed it... most banks will NOT touch you once you've been in a prop trading house (rightly or wrongly). I just met up with someone at the Trader Monthly event in Harrods tonight. He was with me in the Schneider's Trader Training Course and has been told by recruitment consultants that they weren't interested once he revealed he attended a prop house training scheme.

welco11 said:

My advice would be don't do it unless your taught by a professional to trade outrights properly using Technical Analysis etc and there are very few who are good enough to make money trading outrights.Spread trading at the arcades is very hard now as there is no real edge anymore, especially in the STIRS.Most of the locals I know are changing products eg energy or getting out the game.

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I second the part about STIRs and trading outrights... a lot of people seem to be leaving the game and the STIR market is quite saturated.

fifty2aces said:

I'm already teaching myself how to trade outrights with TA - do you know of any arcades/prop firms which do this?

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There is a group in Schneiders called 'EDL' which seems to trade outright... however they trade in the darkness of a sideroom so I have no idea if they are looking for fresh blood.

Graduate trainee schemes are mostly there to make the firms in question LOOK GOOD......... !!


hate to dispel the myth - but MOST TAXI DRIVERS would make better traders than your average graduate.. !! FACT...!! - (look at that moron Kerviel)

FORGET the " recruitment agencies " - staffed with people who think they know it all - (if they did know what they were talking about, they wouldnt be working in recruitment).
Get some SOLID grounding in some basics, Dow Theory etc and STUDY IN YOUR SPARE TIME... !! and then try using the PHONE and go KNOCKING ON DOORS - (in the City if thats where you want to work) -

its not just WHAT you know that matters, but WHO you can make CONTACT WITH that matters... !!
If you want to be " different " than all the "same old graduates ", you got to " think " differently than the other graduates -

and i dont mean academically..... !!

theroguetrader said:

Graduate trainee schemes are mostly there to make the firms in question LOOK GOOD......... !!

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I agree... but they are also there to make sure that the company trains up staff since that won't cost as much in the long term.

theroguetrader said:

hate to dispel the myth - but MOST TAXI DRIVERS would make better traders than your average graduate.. !! FACT...!! - (look at that moron Kerviel)

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Stick a taxi driver in a grad course and I would agree. Without any knowledge I would disagree

theroguetrader said:

FORGET the " recruitment agencies " - staffed with people who think they know it all - (if they did know what they were talking about, they wouldnt be working in recruitment).

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Agreed for the recruiters who target grads

theroguetrader said:

Get some SOLID grounding in some basics, Dow Theory etc and STUDY IN YOUR SPARE TIME... !! and then try using the PHONE and go KNOCKING ON DOORS - (in the City if thats where you want to work) -

its not just WHAT you know that matters, but WHO you can make CONTACT WITH that matters... !!
If you want to be " different " than all the "same old graduates ", you got to " think " differently than the other graduates

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True - but bear in mind that not everyone has the financial means or time to do this... there are many graduates who come out of university, fall straight into a grad program and learn from there and then the people they are working with every day. If everyone had those opportunities there would be a lot more traders out there...

RichieE said:

I agree... but they are also there to make sure that the company trains up staff since that won't cost as much in the long term.Stick a taxi driver in a grad course and I would agree. Without any knowledge I would disagreeAgreed for the recruiters who target gradsTrue - but bear in mind that not everyone has the financial means or time to do this... there are many graduates who come out of university, fall straight into a grad program and learn from there and then the people they are working with every day. If everyone had those opportunities there would be a lot more traders out there...

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yea, but " graduates " dont make good traders because they are " graduates " ...!! Sure, if your numerate and you want to become a Quant - well thats a specialist role and if your a bright spark, youll get a good job in a good bank,
but trading ISNT rocket science AT ALL - i really dont want to make it sound overly simplistic, because it can be hard - especially for " newbies " -
Just because your a graduate doesnt mean you can " do the job " -

I think the finance industry themselves AND the media are to blame partly - theyve created this " Holy Grail " of a job called a " TRADER " - and everyone " wrongly assumes " they have to get this " coveted job "....... !!

The BIG cheese is in Hedge Funds and Investment Banking anyway !!
$$$$ MUCHO DINERO ... !!

theroguetrader said:

yea, but " graduates " dont make good traders because they are " graduates " ...!! Sure, if your numerate and you want to become a Quant - well thats a specialist role and if your a bright spark, youll get a good job in a good bank,
but trading ISNT rocket science AT ALL - i really dont want to make it sound overly simplistic, because it can be hard - especially for " newbies " -
Just because your a graduate doesnt mean you can " do the job "

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I totally agree... but the same is true for the vast majority of 'so called' graduate jobs.

theroguetrader said:

I think the finance industry themselves AND the media are to blame partly - theyve created this " Holy Grail " of a job called a " TRADER " - and everyone " wrongly assumes " they have to get this " coveted job "....... !!

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Who is 'they'? The main reason why most people want to become traders is to become rich... and what's wrong with that?

theroguetrader said:

The BIG cheese is in Hedge Funds and Investment Banking anyway !! $$$$ MUCHO DINERO ... !!

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The money in hedge funds and investment banking will only come after a decade or two of work. A CEO of a Dow Component company gets paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. That is more than most traders will earn in their lifetime. However, do you really want to wait until you're 50 or 60 years old to get there?