See it now

Jesse Livermore:the man who is right

It sounds very easy to say that all you have to do is to watch the tape, establish your resistance points and be ready to trade along the line of least resistance as soon as you have determined it.But in actual practice a man has to guard against many things, and most of all against himself-that is against human nature.

Thats why I say that the man who is right has two forces working in his favour- basic conditions and the men who are wrong.
 

Attachments

  • pipon.gif
    pipon.gif
    42.3 KB · Views: 263
Last edited:
Jesse livermore: narrow market

This experience has been the experience of so many traders so many times that I can give this rule:

In a narrow market when prices are not getting anywhere to speak of but move within a narrow range, there is no sense in trying to anticipate what the next big movement is going to be-up or down.

The thing to do is to watch the market, read the tape to determine the limits of the get- nowhere prices, and make up your mind that you will-not take an interest until the price breaks the limit in either direction.

A speculator must concern himself with making money out of the market and not with insisting that the tape must agree with him.
 
Last edited:
vsa

This I received from a very generous member:

If you have comments on the content, let us know.
 

Attachments

  • VSA_Methodology[1].doc
    141 KB · Views: 798
Acrary: If you had to do it all over again....

With the info I have now, I would've done things very differently.

I would trade 100% strategic and 0% tactical. By this, I mean I would diversify simple trading styles like trend, countertrend and rangebound over time and markets. I wasted too much time and effort on when to buy and when to sell. My time would've been better served asking; "should I be long, short, or flat?", for the simple strategies in multiple timeframes and markets.
Rather than compounding I would add more timeframes or markets to build the account while continually lowering the overall risk.

Yes, I've fooled myself with the "perception is reality" argument.

My work with my model on immunologic response has forced me to completely change my views on the markets. I used to think the markets were mostly random and chaotic with periods of stable recurring predictability. I couldn't prove this theory because I hadn't come up with a really good way of segmenting market movements and the sample sizes were always statistically small. This was my perception ... and I acted on it so it must have been my reality.

I quickly realized if I wanted to come up to speed on immunologic work I'd have to abandon pattern matching and concentrate on letting the algo work on finding the best strategy for a market. To do this I built a handful of basic strategies and forced the market activity into a time box (1 day, 2 days, etc.). I then used the model (I call it Doron) to determine which of the available strategies should be used for the market in the time period. Anytime a large losing period was found I'd look at the data and determine that I didn't have a strategy for the model to use. So I'd code up a new simple strategy for it to sample (much like your immune system getting fooled the first time it faces a new disease...sample it...become resistant to future occurrences).

In short what I found was a handful of simple strategies in a couple of markets were just as effective as all the years of work I did on finding market inefficiencies, measuring them, and exploiting them with tight edges. I had to give up my basic market premise and now go with "the markets are mostly inefficient and chaotic with small periods of stable predictability but with large periods of stable recurring strategic themes."

In short, at 50 I feel like an old fool. Squandering my time trying to figure out the optimal way to fish in a pond when all I had to do was turn my back and throw out my line into a ocean full of opportunities. Maybe some 20 something will learn something from this and not waste his life like I have with the false perceptions I bought into. Our perceptions are indeed our reality.

If you accept the first case you have to believe there is a high signal to noise ratio. Because of this, the opportunities for consistent profitability would appear as islands of opportunity in a sea of randomness. It would require large, indepth study to locate the islands and large periods where you wouldn't trade.

In the second case the markets are non-random but ever changing along the lines of themes (large trending periods, large chop periods, large counter-trend periods, etc.). In this case all you have to do is determine what large periods occur in a market and put in a strategy to exploit the opportunity as it comes around. No need to worry about randomness. Just define the dominant strategies in a market and do the basics like let profits run...cut losses short and let the strategies play out over time.

Huge difference in scalability between the two.

No, what I'm saying is in case 2 all you need to do is determine the themes, apply normal trade management skills, and diversify in time, approaches, and markets to control losses. I didn't think I could achieve superior results this way and thought it would end up like the one dimension long term trend followers that suffer through long and deep drawdowns. What I've found is you get the benefits of case 1 and the scalability of long term trend traders without having to pay in terms of deep drawdowns. No need to switch between themes. Cut losses short if a primary theme becomes secondary and let the secondary that becomes primary give you your profits. Not very exciting...but very rewarding. No prediction necessary.

Lets say a market has two primary characteristics; trend and bounce off support/resistance on a daytrading basis. The market opens and starts to drop. You enter a short following the trend. The market goes down to a support level, stalls and starts to reverse. The support model kicks in a long trade. Meanwhile the trend model is far enough ahead that the stop is moved to breakeven. The market continues up and ends the day near a old high (resistance). In this case you brokeven on the trend trade by using common trade management. The bounce trade made a good profit. No bias was taken because you would've made money if the market blew through support and the bounce trade was stopped out. That's all I'm saying.

Don't use a bias. Trade both. Keep capital allocations per-trade small and let the more frequent trading compound the account.
 
Last edited:
superfly said:
snip

In a narrow market when prices are not getting anywhere to speak of but move within a narrow range, there is no sense in trying to anticipate what the next big movement is going to be-up or down.

.


never sell a dull market.

an old wall st saying.
 
The big picture matters

.
TheBramble said:
With trading, the biggest psychological trap is assuming you've made a rational decision on why to go into/keep out of and come out of/stay in a trade - when what most have done is had an emotional response to a situation, made their decision on an emotional basis, and then, subsequently, invent the rationale for their decision. And mostly this occurs at the Unconscious level.

Even simply recognising this occurs is sufficient to get you on track to resolving it. That, to me, seems the hardest part for most traders. It's not the only hurdle, but it is the highest one.
 
Tsun tsu

The natural formation of the country is the soldier's best ally; but a power of estimating the adversary, of controlling the forces of victory, and of shrewdly calculating difficulties, dangers and distances, constitutes the test of a great general.
 
Interesting opinion

.
chump said:
I don't think it is necessarily a case of FA being first as such and in fact it does not matter as far as the end result is concerned..for myself I look at it this way....FA tries to analyse the what content of value and TA attempts to analyse the when aspect to value and timing...however bear in mind this...most people get it wrong ,if they didn't the market would not behave the way it does ,that is it would just be more one directional (trending for most of the time and we know this is not true) , and both FA and TA are caught in that argument..so we want to know their primary terms of reference ..their tools ,..because if they are wrong we want to know the significant points that will tell us when they also realise they are wrong..this gives us the ability to be in their pocket at that moment.....bear in mind you do not win by accurately anticipating fair value...you do not win by correctly anticipating when fair value will be caught by the market...you win by banking the money when the majority of people get these expectations wrong and react to that outcome ....this is a psychological numbers game...
 
Quote from floortradr542:
For those interested, let me put you on the path to discovery. The key is to break down the market into its smallest fractal. Then know which cycles are key in your market's unfolding. When multiples of these cycles point in the same direction, you know which way to go.

You need to see what everyone else sees, but not see it in the same way they do. Build on that and everything else falls into place.
 
Sorry to add content which may be unwelcome superfly but I thought you might like this -

Quote from Scientist:

What would you say if I told you that the very largest majority of ES and NQ traders trade 1m, 3m, 5m and 15m bars? It should in fact be well over 90% of them. Not only that for discretionary traders, but particularly the extremely inefficient mechanical traders. Almost every mechanical system on the futs, from intraday to swing, uses 3m, 5m or 15m bars!

If you don't believe it - Get your head around bar countdown. Get into your head at what times bars on each TF close (you can learn that in about 10 minutes), then monitor the actual time and watch what happens within the last 15-30s of a particular TF bar closing!!!

You will be amazed. What you will find is that large orders from professionals will roll through before the closure of the bar, in order to "hype" dummy trades by mechanical and edge traders who are just waiting for a bar to close. Well, the pro's don't wait for a bar to close - LOL. And you're the dummy.

It's not a secret, but most people never even figure this out. However, this is the reason why "edge" traders will never, I repeat never be able to perform nearly as well as discretionary traders who realize all these things are actually going on during the day. Eventually, as markets become more mechanically efficient, edgers will die completely (so my bold but confident prognosis). Pro's simply know all this and chuckle at themselves from 9:30 to 16:00, grazing all the green off the thousands of edgers, using 1,000+ car positions - All day long.

Don't be a victim. Make sure you understand all this. Only then can you be a successful, seriously outperforming trader. If you think you can make money doing what everybody else does - think again. Isn't it contradictive? Exactly!

Don't take the word for anything I said here. Instead, go and watch the market by yourself tomorrow - watch the bars before and after the close, what happens and how the the traders of the different TF bars, particularly mechanical close-bar traders affect the market!

You will be (un)pleasantly surprised.
 
Pullback

>> how would you define a pullback : how far can the price come back to the breakout-point and still be a valid pullback ? <<

Some things we "Wyckoffians" look for on pullbacks: Narrower range bars and lower/contracting vol relative to the rally or breakout that preceded it; a 50% retracement, obviously the more shallow the retracement the more positive; closes in the upper-half of the bars, the nearer to the high of the day the better; it's nice to see some kind of "shakeout" bar like a dragonfly doji, a wide spread closing at the high, that downthrusts some kind of previous s/r; stopped at previous support/resistance, such as the breakout point, or if it drops back into the trading range a more minor s/r point w/in the range; greater relative strength on the rally & pullback vs the parent index. MA's are also good; if a stock in an uptrend has continually bounced off the rising 20d or 50d ma on pullbacks one can watch for that; best if pulling back to a still rising or flat ma w/other confirming convergence of support factors.

Also consider time, a reaction should not go on too long relative to the rally, even if it's shallow and goes mostly sideways. If it does go on longer, it may still continue up eventually, of course, but it may need to consolidate for a while first.

If a reaction does retrace deeply and seems sharp or it goes sideways for a while, and then seems to be resuming the uptrend, watch for a "test" of the reaction itself. This will often be brief and shallow, which is of course positive. Remember, the "initial" reaction is itself a "test" of the previous low, so this scenario would be a test of that test. You will often see this in what Wyckoff calls an Ordinary Shakeout, which is a strong reaction in an uptrend that is then usually tested in this way before it ultimately resumes the uptrend.

Harold
 
restatement of core business tasks

1-design, exploit and refine a consitent favourable opportunity/risk/cost strategy
2-prepare next trade session: record mayor viable vertical opportunity-themes in target-market
3-observe and read real-time dynamics in "wait and see" mode
4-when evidence cumulates for a viable next legg, design alphatest
5-when alpatest passed, shrewdly time the participation in further (expected) advance
6-from the geto protect $ against adverse moves within pertinent risk tollerance boundaries
7-evaluate
 
Last edited:
for those hoping scalping is a quick fix for impatience, etc.,
from experience I can tell you
scalping demands a high quality of organisation, patience, timing and discipline
 
Last edited:
adding value to the quality of execution

know:
-your weaknesses and mitigate them
-who you make money from and why and then anticipate them
 
illiquid again

ask yourself what kind of trading you will need to teach yourself in a way that will still be effective 5, 10, 20 years from now. What are the factors that change with the markets? What are the principles that stay the same throughout?
 
superfly said:
A diamond is a piece of coal that stuck to the job" - Thomas Edison

Thats a great quote Superfly, really like that one, it bodes well...
 
process

1] preallocation = context, inter market theme, potential setup, valid trigger
2] allocation = fixed lot market entry, initial loss-tolerance
3] manage = adapt loss-tolerance in line with spot opportunity
 
Last edited:
Top