Pensions

chump · Oct 12, 2004

"Earlier, the report's author, Adair Turner, told BBC Radio: "We are going ... to say the challenge is surmountable, that it can be overcome by intelligent policy by government and by intelligent choices by individuals.".....

Well that's ok then because I also saw a flying pig going past my window earlier...the double use of the word "intelligent" concerns me greatly.... I can't help but feel that though I have been making intelligent choices all my life I am about to start picking up the cost for those that didn't and won't ... and for politicians whose failure to recognise that arises out of their need to be elected....whinge over

sidinuk · Oct 12, 2004

OK, the pensions are £57bn underfunded. Gorden Brown, in his first year as 'the most successful chancellor ever', scrapped the tax free status of pension funds effectively taxing them by £5bn a year.

£5bn/year compounded at 8%/year from 1997 to 2004 gives you - £57bn!!!

So much for the intelligent policy by government.

chump · Oct 12, 2004

Yes, there's just the glimmer of the possibility that Tony Blair will be giving a rendition of the Doris Day classic "Move over darlin" towards Gordon B for giving him such a hot chestnut to play with

oatman · Oct 12, 2004

£5bn/year compounded at 8%/year from 1997 to 2004 gives you - £57bn!!!
Cyclops, give us back our £5b. pa.
And now the Jocks have got their own Parliament, can we have Westminster back please? Even Guy Fawkes couldn't get away with it :cheesy:

TWI · Oct 12, 2004

This is a great incentive to make sure the mechanical trading system you are working on is successful. If you are not working on one and do not have a private pension or you fail then you will likely die in squaller.

sidinuk · Oct 12, 2004

you will likely die in squaller.

Always look on the bright side of life, eh!

sidinuk · Oct 12, 2004

Here's the choice for most people: 1. Save diligently for 30 years and pay a pension fund manager a fortune to lose most of it for you. 2 spend all you earn on cars, clothes and beer.

Means testing ensures that person 1 will be no better off in retirement then person 2 unless he saves at least £90,000. The average pension pot is worth just £30,000.

hmmm...intelligent government policy again then?

chump · Oct 12, 2004

Choice...it's all about choice and control...if you choose to tie your economic future to a set of rules laid down by someone else then don't be surprised when that future does not turn out the way you had ..I was going to say planned..but that's the problem isn't it ..you didn't plan if you bought into the pension story...you hoped...you hoped that those other nice people wouldn't change the rules on you to which you had bound your hopes...all of which means you made the choice to give away control... and that means you are now playing someone elses game... I might post this on unlearning in general chat

Glenn · Oct 12, 2004

Government "You should put money into a pension fund"
Joe Public "OK smartypants, that's only half the story. Now tell me what will make my pension increase and not crumble into dust at the hands of the 'experts' who have already messed up"
Government "Eh? Well all the risk has now been transferred from your employer to you. So you have to be the expert now."
Joe Public " Ah - I see. So you can't tell me then. You don't know.
Government "That's right"
Joe Public "So what makes you an expert if you only know half the story ? Seems to me you're just making it up as you go along, keeping your fingers crossed and hoping it works out while you are in office."
Government "Something like that yes"
Joe Public "So what happens if you are wrong and we all end up with nothing worth having ?"
Government "Why should I care, I can vote myself big wage rises and pension guarantees".

Glenn

chump · Oct 12, 2004

Glenn,
You have missed your vocation..take up scriptwriting..just not for Tony Blair

Glenn · Oct 12, 2004

As Socrates might say, if it were not so true it would be funny.
aka "Yes Minister"

I'll stick to trading thanks Chumpy. One of the few ways to get a pension to go where you want it.
I think dbphoenix or someone said the same recently.

Glenn

axthree · Oct 12, 2004

Of course, if all the pension arrangements were administered simply and in a commonsense way, the waste thus eliminated would cover the shortfall.
By waste I mean the mountains of paperwork and whole tribes of administrators who will always find a justification for their existence until we take the b****s out and shoot them.
This applies equally to government and private sectors.
I worked in financial services for a few years and some of what I learned would make people's hair fall out!!

Airthrey Capital · Oct 13, 2004

Has anyybody else here noticed that most companies have stopped their final salary pension schemes to all newcomers....yet the public sector still continue with very generous schemes for their employees.....the very same people who made the stupid policies in the first place!

Interesting to investigate how much of your Council Tax increases are actually being used to cover the pension shortfall for the over-staffed Council area which you live in.

Have you also noticed the comfy pension that an MP gets if he loses his seat in an election.....Its a disgrace!...Very much a case of "I'm all right Jack, but you plebs can f** off!"

Rant over.

(Grumpy Old Man)

JTrader · Oct 13, 2004

I heard on the news recently that 4000 people in York did not pay their council tax. The local council sent out last minute reminders to these people and half of them paid up. The other 2000 seemed to be sticking to their guns. What are the authorities likely to do - send 2000 people to prison? - Power to the people!

With regard to the 57000,000,000 pensions shortfall. Does this sum refer to both private and public sector employee pensions and basic state pension also?

Is this shortfall due simply to stockmarket falls, and fund managers not maintaining a strict stop loss?

Cheers

jtrader.

oatman · Oct 13, 2004

Is this shortfall due simply to stockmarket falls, and fund managers not maintaining a strict stop loss?
You're kidding

They don't know what a stoploss is.
They don't know the word SELL.
They can't say the word LOSS.
A profit is when they come out the same or better than the competition.

If it were not so serious, it would be funny :cheesy:

ewilcox · Oct 13, 2004

They don't know the word SELL.

Not exactly fair. They do know the word sell .... just only when they've nothing left to do so with. The mismanagement of pension funds is right up with enron as far as i'm concerned.

barjon · Oct 13, 2004

oatman said:
Is this shortfall due simply to stockmarket falls, and fund managers not maintaining a strict stop loss?
You're kidding
They don't know what a stoploss is.
They don't know the word SELL.
They can't say the word LOSS.
A profit is when they come out the same or better than the competition.

If it were not so serious, it would be funny :cheesy:

most of them can't sell since they are bound by their rules to hold not more than x% in cash.

anyway the capital value of the share doesn't matter - it's the income that counts. it doesn't matter if their shares in M&S are each worth 10p or £10 as long as the income is £5 pa (or whatever). the "shortfall" when it's based on capital values is a fiction.

JTrader · Oct 13, 2004

I find it difficult to talk to and explain to some of my aquaintances about trading. It seems that they no more than I do at times, and all they can say is - "isn't that a bit risky?" and similar things. Therefore I make a point of not talking about trading.

One of my Teacher pals was telling me the other week how I need to think about my long term security. When you have a mortage you need a regular income and when you retire you need a good pension to live on.

I did explain to him that I did not intend to be a trader for the next 35 years. My goals were to make a decent pile of cash over a 5 year period in order to let me move on to other things and ease the pressure of mortgages etc.

How would you have responded to my friend and his concerns in this discussion?

Also, how do you respond to such "experts" who seemingly know as much about financial markets, earning potential and risk, as you do?

Many thanks

jtrader.

oatman · Oct 13, 2004

They're not relying on their own ablities, only what they are told or read in the Daily Mail, or whatever. You know about trading and can see through their "plans". They don't "need" to know.

You will never get through to them. They are happy until it goes tits up.

Just be polite and answer their questions as best as you can.
They are always asking but never take the advice.

You already stated that they think everything is too risky.

Some people, you just can't help.

chump · Oct 13, 2004

Well ...let's see who can we blame .... Govt .....FSA's.... Fund managers .... there must be a longer list than this surely ..... hold on I think I have forgotten someone ... anyone want to guess who that someone might be ?

I am going to be in the words of another poster ..."brutal" .... many people just cannot be bothered to use the space between their ears , the effort is just too much , and it is that laziness that leads them into a place they never knew existed trying to understand what went wrong .. who can we blame ...
yes, the govt contributed ,yes the FSA's contributed , but the biggest contributor of all was the person who chose to delegate their thinking into the 'hands' of those other parties ... I'm not willing to join the party apportioning blame outwards , because as long as that happens no 'victim' is going to learn anything from issues like this....and if they don't then they will just keep repeating the same mistake over and over again

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