All that isnt method, especially TiTZ.

Sorry guys, im not talking about those kinds of TiTZ

Im talking about this TiTZ

The basic aim is to engage in the psychological side of stuff. Anything goes, your choice.

Im gona get the ball rolling with with this taken from this thread

PieterSteidelmayer said:

For what it's worth I spent my early career as a cognitive psychologist and there is no doubt that psychology comes from competence within context. If you're good at something and you do it well, you're psychology will be just fine. No amount of trying to make your psychology fit your desired outcome will work. It just doesn't work that way round. It will just cause depression, frustration and emotional turmoil. When it comes to trading it'll also cause loss of money.

Think of anything that you're good at and enjoy doing; did you have to specifically set a psychological mindset to achieve that; a list of rules and dos and don'ts? No, of course not.

Click to expand...

darktone said:

I have to confess i find those comments 'surprising' coming from a cognitive psychologist.
How would you approach a tennis player who loves playing tennis but chokes whenever they play a game point? You have seen first hand that his game play is amazing next to his peers, more so when just knocking up.
What would look for first?

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bold added by PieterSteidelmayer

PieterSteidelmayer said:

I have added emphasis to your comment to underline my point. You're talking about someone who has raw talent and has a small flaw in his end game. Not someone who is mediocre or quite simply useless that wants to play like a pro and thinks mind games or a good coach or a popular psych-book is all that's required.

The raw talent needs to be there first - you can't grow that from books or mentors.

There are techniques that would help an already gifted talent in any endeavour, but these would be no help to those who do not already posses the talent.

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darktone said:

Thankyou, youve just told me all i need to know.

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Yeah, a bit sarky and perhaps shortsighted on my part. Apologies offered.

Lets pick things up from here.

PieterSteidelmayer said:

I have added emphasis to your comment to underline my point. You're talking about someone who has raw talent and has a small flaw in his end game. Not someone who is mediocre or quite simply useless that wants to play like a pro and thinks mind games or a good coach or a popular psych-book is all that's required.

The raw talent needs to be there first - you can't grow that from books or mentors.

There are techniques that would help an already gifted talent in any endeavour, but these would be no help to those who do not already posses the talent.

Click to expand...

I agree that player has a natural talent, and relative to the club that he plays at has all the shots and hits the ball very well. Yet, when it comes to a match he loses 80% of the time, in tornaments, out in the first round.
You mentioned "a small flaw in his end game". What could that be?
Technique perhaps, (posture, how he holds the racquet etc).
Game point method/strategy maybe (Perhaps he should play safer and look for a mistake from his opponent, maybe he should go all out and try n seal the deal)
Or perhaps its something else?

Could you expand a little on the 'techniques that would help' you mentioned.

Confidence through knowledge.
I was once told that, going back 20 odd years ago, always stuck with me.
Sounds trite, but its true.

Personally, psychology is largely BS, its sole use is to prevent you falling into
traps that cause you to ignore your stats and method.
In other words, when it isn't going your way, focus on your stats.
Are you happy with them, just a bad patch, deeper flaw or method simply does not work.

Stats and method only mean anything with sample size.
They are either good enough or they aren't.
No amount of psycho babble will fix that if its broken.

Which brings me back to the opening sentence.
Confidence through knowledge.
The knowledge is a thorough understanding of your method,
which is only gained via sample size - tested and / or live.

There is a massive difference between method failure,
lack of implementation discipline, and desire for greater efficiency.

I've had that happen to me recently.
Method has not failed (current trough goes with the turf - mirrored in testing).
Implementation discipline not an issue.
Efficiency is the issue for me - psychological BS will not fix that,
only research and testing will.

Liquid validity said:

Confidence through knowledge.
I was once told that, going back 20 odd years ago, always stuck with me.
Sounds trite, but its true.

Personally, psychology is largely BS, its sole use is to prevent you falling into
traps that cause you to ignore your stats and method.
In other words, when it isn't going your way, focus on your stats.
Are you happy with them, just a bad patch, deeper flaw or method simply does not work.

Stats and method only mean anything with sample size.
They are either good enough or they aren't.
No amount of psycho babble will fix that if its broken.

Which brings me back to the opening sentence.
Confidence through knowledge.
The knowledge is a thorough understanding of your method,
which is only gained via sample size - tested and / or live.

There is a massive difference between method failure,
lack of implementation discipline, and desire for greater efficiency.

I've had that happen to me recently.
Method has not failed (current trough goes with the turf - mirrored in testing).
Implementation discipline not an issue.
Efficiency is the issue for me - psychological BS will not fix that,
only research and testing will.

Click to expand...

Cheers for stepping up LV, good post and tbh i agree with a lot of it.
Where i agree:-
i) No amount of psycho work is gona fix a bad/losing method.
ii) There are different modes of failure in trading (method/implementation etc)
iii) Psycho work cant fix all modes of failure

Where I dont agree:-
i) "Confidence through knowledge". I view that as fragile.
ii) "psychology is largely BS, its sole use is to prevent you falling into
traps that cause you to ignore your stats and method." I think that is a very limited view of the importance of the psychological side.


Lets challenge the "Confidence through knowledge" with an example.
Your best bud invites you (a non climber) to goto the climbing wall and you agree to go. You know he has years of experience and has never dropped anyone. Still you want to improve your confidence through knowledge so you research the certs of the wall and capacities of the equipment (ropes/anchors etc). All is more than to your satisfaction.
At the gym youre 3/4 of the way through the climb, feeling tired, forearms starting to pump. The finish hold is in sight, after the crux, on an overhang. You look down to your friend 10m below. He shouts up genuine encouragement "Go for it! Youre totally safe!"
At this point, most people would experience fear (lack of confidence), at any level between mild ~ total paralyzing terror. Regardless of what they may know about the safety equipment.

darktone said:

Where I dont agree:-
i) "Confidence through knowledge". I view that as fragile.
ii) "psychology is largely BS, its sole use is to prevent you falling into
traps that cause you to ignore your stats and method." I think that is a very limited view of the importance of the psychological side.

Lets challenge the "Confidence through knowledge" with an example.
Your best bud invites you (a non climber) to goto the climbing wall and you agree to go. You know he has years of experience and has never dropped anyone. Still you want to improve your confidence through knowledge so you research the certs of the wall and capacities of the equipment (ropes/anchors etc). All is more than to your satisfaction.
At the gym youre 3/4 of the way through the climb, feeling tired, forearms starting to pump. The finish hold is in sight, after the crux, on an overhang. You look down to your friend 10m below. He shouts up genuine encouragement "Go for it! Youre totally safe!"
At this point, most people would experience fear (lack of confidence), at any level between mild ~ total paralyzing terror. Regardless of what they may know about the safety equipment.

Click to expand...

No that is the wrong analogy.
In that instance you don't have a track record as a climber,
so how can you have confidence with no knowledge
of your track record or abilities as a climber.
Same with anything else.
Thats what the phrase means.

Oh and the the bloke that told me that was a very successful businessman
who was also a mentor on the Princes trust business course I was on at the time.
I stand by the phrase, you don't buy it, fair enough.

Liquid validity said:

No that is the wrong analogy.

Click to expand...

Are you sure about that?
You said "Confidence through knowledge"
You didnt say "Confidence through knowledge/experience/acceptance/competence and whatever else you can think of)

Liquid validity said:

In that instance you don't have a track record as a climber,
so how can you have confidence with no knowledge
of your track record or abilities as a climber.
Same with anything else.

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This implies that 'knowledge' to you means at least (experience/competence) or "track record"
It doesnt to me, imo, someone can experienced yet be the least competent. Also they can be very knowledgeable about a subject, "This rope will hold a static weight 2500 kg and be able to withstand any dynamic load my body weight can exert on it. The anchors are 3 point fixed and are rated at yada yada.." Yet they can be without any experience. With no experience they havent had a chance to discover how competent they can be.

Liquid validity said:

Thats what the phrase means.

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Id contest, thats what the phrase means you.

Liquid validity said:

Oh and the the bloke that told me that was a very successful businessman
who was also a mentor on the Princes trust business course I was on at the time.
I stand by the phrase, you don't buy it, fair enough.

Click to expand...

That doesnt mean much to me tbh.

Im not trying to burn you mate, its real easy to throw the gloves off when our beliefs are questioned, please bare with me, all leads into the next example quite well i think.

Liquid validity said:

The knowledge is a thorough understanding of your method,
which is only gained via sample size - tested and / or live.

Click to expand...

Seems pretty clear the knowledge I was referring to.
Thats all that matters, everything else is irrelevant without that.

Originally Posted by Liquid validity
The knowledge is a thorough understanding of your method,
which is only gained via sample size - tested and / or live.

Click to expand...

Liquid validity said:

Seems pretty clear the knowledge I was referring to.
Thats all that matters, everything else is irrelevant without that.

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Well it was clear to you, but not so clear to me.
Understanding your method over a decent sample size, thats great.
"Thats all that matters, everything else is irrelevant without that" I dont agree. (Yeah wotever tar! )

Que another example:-
Bob is sat at his desk trading/managing his method. Hes come out of drawdown and printing black, life is good. A glance at the clock shows 2pm, Newton Twangler (A trader friend of a friend) will be here soon, hes been pre warned the guys an arz but he knows his stuff.
In he walks, uneducated, arrogant, loud. Lives up to his description in every way. After some chit chat he says "So wot are u doin then?" Bob shows him his method/stats.." "."I aint bein funny mate but that, that there wot ur doin is faaarkin average! Ere, ave a look at that!" He slaps his stats down on the desk and with a sarky slap on the shoulder "Gota go mate, people to do places to see". As quick as hes arrived hes gone, out the door and into the lambo.
"What a prize pr1ck" Bob rightly thinks and after hes calmed down goes onto to view NTs numbers. To his disgust they are amazing! Twice the return with half the perceived risk. Most galling, hes 10x Bobs size.
How can that morons method be so much better than mine! thinks Bob

Edit 1:We can swap any thought or scenario for how Bob thinks and reacts
Edit 2:Twangler stats are his results ie he really trades it and his method and execution outstrips Bobs in every way.

darktone said:

Que another example:-
Bob is sat at his desk trading/managing his method. Hes come out of drawdown and printing black, life is good. A glance at the clock shows 2pm, Newton Twangler (A trader friend of a friend) will be here soon, hes been pre warned the guys an arz but he knows his stuff.
In he walks, uneducated, arrogant, loud. Lives up to his description in every way. After some chit chat he says "So wot are u doin then?" Bob shows him his method/stats.."

"."I aint bein funny mate but that, that there wot ur doin is faaarkin average! Ere, ave a look at that!" He slaps his stats down on the desk and with a sarky slap on the shoulder "Gota go mate, people to do places to see". As quick as hes arrived hes gone, out the door and into the lambo.
"What a prize pr1ck" Bob rightly thinks and after hes calmed down goes onto to view NTs numbers. To his disgust they are amazing! Twice the return with half the perceived risk. Most galling, hes 10x Bobs size.
How can that morons method be so much better than mine! thinks Bob

Click to expand...

me again mate
I'm not sure I'm following this example, but from what I can see (and using LVs very wise words) Bob has a method that HE knows, and he is trading HIS method and it seems to be working...life is good

firstly. why is life good? Because his method, that HE has chosen is coming up trumps, and likely because he has backtested it and the reinforced positive expectancy of backtesting/live trading and method that he himself knows.
Thats what I take from life is good

Secondly, who gives a toss about newton's method. Thats his method, that netwon knows..not Bob. Also, they are just stats (ive got amazing stats, but unless I can trade them live and see them to fruition, they are just that..stats)
Also, you are supposing that bob gets angry, why can't bob still be happy?
He's just got lucky with one of your rather fine looking bearer of good tidings above..he's not angry. He knows Newtons a **** and dismisses it and carries on with his trading, which is good because..yep, method

it seems there are too many variables in your example..as in happy/sad/angry and you are determining his emotional responses. They could equally be emotionless. He is in the Zone, you could say, blissfully trading his method without a care in the world.

malaguti said:

I'm not sure I'm following this example

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Don't worry, I doubt you are alone.
Maybe DT will cut the BS and show us all how its done then
and post up some of his stats.

Instead of making a p1ss poor attempt
at winning an argument he's already lost by coming up with increasingly
vague and irrelevant hypothetical analogies...

So I'm all ears DT

darktone said:

Sorry guys, im not talking about these kinda of TiTZ

or even these ones!

Im talking about this TiTZ

The basic aim is to engage in the psychological side of stuff. Anything goes, your choice.

Click to expand...

Are they hers?

malaguti said:

me again mate
I'm not sure I'm following this example, but from what I can see (and using LVs very wise words) Bob has a method that HE knows, and he is trading HIS method and it seems to be working...life is good

firstly. why is life good? Because his method, that HE has chosen is coming up trumps, and likely because he has backtested it and the reinforced positive expectancy of backtesting/live trading and method that he himself knows.
Thats what I take from life is good

Secondly, who gives a toss about newton's method. Thats his method, that netwon knows..not Bob. Also, they are just stats (ive got amazing stats, but unless I can trade them live and see them to fruition, they are just that..stats)
Also, you are supposing that bob gets angry, why can't bob still be happy?
He's just got lucky with one of your rather fine looking bearer of good tidings above..he's not angry. He knows Newtons a **** and dismisses it and carries on with his trading, which is good because..yep, method

it seems there are too many variables in your example..as in happy/sad/angry and you are determining his emotional responses. They could equally be emotionless. He is in the Zone, you could say, blissfully trading his method without a care in the world.

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I agree with it all mate. Including LVs wise words. I put Bobs reaction in there as a general stab of what most folks might likely think and feel, dont pay the happy sad thing too much attention. As you said he could be in the Zone.
The general gist i was trying to get over Is that Bob is a smart boy, and hes come up with a method to beat the market, thats great. However, what hes come up with isnt anywhere near as good as moron Twangers method. I think most Bobs of the world might want to understand why.
Its all good man, Im expecting lots of hostility.
Cheers for participating

Edit:-
Just to be clear.In the example, Newtons method is real and he trades it.

darktone said:

I agree with it all mate. Including LVs wise words. I put Bobs reaction in there as a general stab of what most folks might likely think and feel, dont pay the happy sad thing too much attention. As you said he could be in the Zone.
The general gist i was trying to get over Is that Bob is a smart boy, and hes come up with a method to beat the market, thats great. However, what hes come up with isnt anywhere near as good as moron Twangers method. I think most Bobs of the world might want to understand why.
Its all good man, Im expecting lots of hostility.
Cheers for participating

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OK i'll put this to you...and I don't want to be negative to the guy.
Forexmospherian
He's come on this forum, and giving it the I AM. His incredible statistics, win rate 5 pip stops blah blah.
WHO, really is buying that? Not me, are you? honestly, are you now doubting your own methods just because somebody SAYS he is amazing?
If you are mate, if you honestly, genuinely are feeling inferior to somebody else's claims I am truly shocked.
I don't think there are more Bobs in this world at all.
I am still rock solid in my approach regarless of how good somebody else SAYS they are doing. Regardless even if he showed me his bank statement. I still would be rock solid in my own belief.
My first thought would be "good for you" but I'm going back to my method. because it works for me.

Now, if you are feeling a little undone by FXs claims..Why are you? Is it because (and I suspect it is) you still haven't found the method that you feel comfortable in. Method again, we keep coming back to that every time.
Over to you buddy

oh have to add..I used to be very doubtful, thats when I read TiTZ. did it help me...NO
What helped me? My method. Now everything begins to fall into place and I can deal with drawdowns etc etc. I couldn't before and there was no amount of postive expectancy can turn a moving average cross over system around. None

Liquid validity said:

Don't worry, I doubt you are alone.
Maybe DT will cut the BS and show us all how its done then
and post up some of his stats.

Instead of making a p1ss poor attempt
at winning an argument he's already lost by coming up with increasingly
vague and irrelevant hypothetical analogies...

So I'm all ears DT

Click to expand...

Listen, to my mind were having a debate and tbh i havent really got started yet, the point im trying to get across that I think psychology matters more than most folks realise. I dont see an argument in that, at least not from my side.
As for me "showing you how its done". Ive already done a thread showing how i trade here. I showed a general method using an ordinary sb account over a month and some, my veiled aim being (at least in part) to show that it can be done. I focused on my losses much more than my winners. And i posted up the results at the end here.I summed up my view of my performance here

darktone said:

So overall, how did I do?
Since the start of the thread the account has been little better than flat, around +8%.
Since the funding of the account things look a little better at touch over +60%.
Sound good? For some no doubt but Imho, all things considered, id put that result as very mediocre result relative to the opps I had during time I was involved.

Click to expand...

I consider that in many ways I failed, Imo i traded pretty bad in that period making all sort of mistakes. But i learnt something from the experience, I learnt to my surprise, imo im trading scared.

malaguti said:

OK i'll put this to you...and I don't want to be negative to the guy.
Forexmospherian
He's come on this forum, and giving it the I AM. His incredible statistics, win rate 5 pip stops blah blah.
WHO, really is buying that? Not me, are you? honestly, are you now doubting your own methods just because somebody SAYS he is amazing?
If you are mate, if you honestly, genuinely are feeling inferior to somebody else's claims I am truly shocked.
I don't think there are more Bobs in this world at all.
I am still rock solid in my approach regarless of how good somebody else SAYS they are doing. Regardless even if he showed me his bank statement. I still would be rock solid in my own belief.
My first thought would be "good for you" but I'm going back to my method. because it works for me.

Now, if you are feeling a little undone by FXs claims..Why are you? Is it because (and I suspect it is) you still haven't found the method that you feel comfortable in. Method again, we keep coming back to that every time.
Over to you buddy

oh have to add..I used to be very doubtful, thats when I read TiTZ. did it help me...NO
What helped me? My method. Now everything begins to fall into place and I can deal with drawdowns etc etc. I couldn't before and there was no amount of postive expectancy can turn a moving average cross over system around. None

Click to expand...

Please tell me that you typed the bit in bold because you high or drunk!
I dont feel inferior to anyone mate. Im secure in my method. Doesnt change the fact im trading scared tho. I can delude myself, or i can investigate.
I could stay pat, not progress and continue to use my method and mindset.
or i can improve and make a slight change to a part of my method and tweek my mindset.

I prefer the second option

Splitlink said:

Are they hers?

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Ive no idea idea mate

Thats it from me tonight. Pick things up tomorrow prolly. youl be glad to know!

darktone said:

Listen, to my mind were having a debate and tbh i havent really got started yet, the point im trying to get across that I think psychology matters more than most folks realise. I dont see an argument in that, at least not from my side.
As for me "showing you how its done". Ive already done a thread showing how i trade here. I showed a general method using an ordinary sb account over a month and some, my veiled aim being (at least in part) to show that it can be done. I focused on my losses much more than my winners. And i posted up the results at the end here.I summed up my view of my performance here

I consider that in many ways I failed, Imo i traded pretty bad in that period making all sort of mistakes. But i learnt something from the experience, I learnt to my surprise, imo im trading scared.

Click to expand...

OK, fair enough, that was an honest reply.
Credit to you for being open, so no more hostility from me