Full time trading does it really pay

Hi I am intregued to know if there are really people out there making a decent consistent living trading.

I am a property investor and have a position in Silver via Bullionvault. Everytime I have a go at trading by selling when I think it is going to go down it carries on going up! I end up thinking sh1t I need to get back in and do so. It is then at that point it crashes!! I have managed to do the same in reverse to...!

I do take a long (12 month+ view) and believe silver has some way to go while interest rates are negative and so far I am sat on a decent profit.

But back to my original question do people really earn money trading sat at home doing their thing? Thanks

I need to clarify my current view which I am hoping to update (at least for trading anyway):
Investing - taking a long term view based on current and historical knowledge.
Trading - gambling

I do. It's the old cliche - it's not easy, but it is simple.

By the way, your problem is this:

"selling when I think it is going to go down".

Keep doing that and keep losing.

Umm thanks but unless their is something deep in your comment I am missing? I have already identified when I try to trade I lose money. ( I have bought in too early as well when price is dropping fearing the price will shoot up).

I mention this to try to share my experiences and draw out other peoples as I am interested in trading but wonder if it is not just a scam or form of gambling that people justify with complicated explainations and lies about how much they earn.

standleymt said:

Umm thanks but unless their is something deep in your comment I am missing? I have already identified when I try to trade I lose money. ( I have bought in too early as well when price is dropping fearing the price will shoot up).

I mention this to try to share my experiences and draw out other peoples as I am interested in trading but wonder if it is not just a scam or form of gambling that people justify with complicated explainations and lies about how much they earn.

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There is something pretty important you're missing.

What is your method and what is its expectancy? What back and forward testing have you done? What have you done to address the psychological aspects of trading? Could you outline your trading plan for us?

If you expect to make money by taking punts when you think something is going to happen, you deserve to lose. Or maybe it's just a scam .

standleymt said:

Hi I am intregued to know if there are really people out there making a decent consistent living trading.

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There are some successful retail traders - maybe 3 out of 100.

Or one in every 10,000 the DEALER

doberman said:

Or one in every 10,000 the DEALER

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Well, maybe the 3 out of 100 have read Edwin O' Thorpe's book, "Beat The Dealer"

Peter

Pazienza said:

There is something pretty important you're missing.

What is your method and what is its expectancy? What back and forward testing have you done? What have you done to address the psychological aspects of trading? Could you outline your trading plan for us?

If you expect to make money by taking punts when you think something is going to happen, you deserve to lose. Or maybe it's just a scam .

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Yes I am sure there is something important I am missing - hence my post and interest in this site As an investor my strategy is to research and then take a long term view and then ride it out.

As a trader I have as you put it taken punts as I know nothing about the things you ask. I am considering various avenues to educate myself, but before I do so am trying to gain some level of reassurance that I will not be wasting my time learning something that in reality cannot be learnt? (you either have it or you don't).

I know of traders who have been paid great salaries in the city but that was playing other peoples money so again I do not know if they actually earnt anything over the long term (for their companies)...

standleymt said:

Yes I am sure there is something important I am missing - hence my post and interest in this site As an investor my strategy is to research and then take a long term view and then ride it out.

As a trader I have as you put it taken punts as I know nothing about the things you ask. I am considering various avenues to educate myself, but before I do so am trying to gain some level of reassurance that I will not be wasting my time learning something that in reality cannot be learnt? (you either have it or you don't).

I know of traders who have been paid great salaries in the city but that was playing other peoples money so again I do not know if they actually earnt anything over the long term (for their companies)...

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You don't really have to learn a great deal from a technical perspective, but most people fail nonetheless. You need to willing to work long and hard at this and you need to be able to take a lot of knocks.

Trading is simple but the patience and perseverance required to learn to trade are very hard to maintain in the face of the inevitable set backs.

Most people will fail, but not because they don't know some "secret" or anything of that nature. It is because they lack the will to complete the necessary learning phase. Most of those that do lack the perseverance necessary to translate this into actual profitable trading.

standleymt said:

I know of traders who have been paid great salaries in the city but that was playing other peoples money so again I do not know if they actually earnt anything over the long term (for their companies)...

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Trading for yourself with your own money is infinitely harder than taking a salaried proprietary trading post, regardless of the pressure you may be under to perform from some pipsqueek above you in an "empty suit" (FbR, Taleb). Trading your own dough through drawdowns (periods while you're under the equity peak often by a significant amount: 25%+) wears on you, however i'm often surprised at how quickly losses are covered and profits accrue through proper execution. Once you've got the "simple" part sorted of making consistent cash from the market (10% of market participants achieve this and less, more likely 5% for 2 years+), then you need to budget like private businesses do, which presents it's own challenges when embracing a profession where in my experience your profits come in waves, and not a nice £ amount per day, week or even month.

If you intend to follow a systems or mechanical (non-discretionary [although in essence all trading is discretionary]) trading route, do rigorous backtesting of a method which you believe will have a positive expectancy. You'll need at least a few hundred trades in my opinion to determine whether your method has an edge, and those few hundred trades have to be executed exactly the same in order to ascertain your method's potential.

Pazienza said:

You don't really have to learn a great deal from a technical perspective, but most people fail nonetheless. You need to willing to work long and hard at this and you need to be able to take a lot of knocks.

Trading is simple but the patience and perseverance required to learn to trade are very hard to maintain in the face of the inevitable set backs.

Most people will fail, but not because they don't know some "secret" or anything of that nature. It is because they lack the will to complete the necessary learning phase. Most of those that do lack the perseverance necessary to translate this into actual profitable trading.

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Thanks for the replies I really appreciate them- It is good to know people are out there making a good living on their own account. The main quality then seems to be psychological toughness and huge self discipline.

It seems my first port of call is to be assessed psychologically as objectively as possible and to put in the hours simulated trading to see if I have the perseverance, I'm sure it will soon become obvious to me.

JRP2891 said:

Trading for yourself with your own money is infinitely harder than taking a salaried proprietary trading post, regardless of the pressure you may be under to perform from some pipsqueek above you in an "empty suit" (FbR, Taleb). Trading your own dough through drawdowns (periods while you're under the equity peak often by a significant amount: 25%+) wears on you, however i'm often surprised at how quickly losses are covered and profits accrue through proper execution. Once you've got the "simple" part sorted of making consistent cash from the market (10% of market participants achieve this and less, more likely 5% for 2 years+), then you need to budget like private businesses do, which presents it's own challenges when embracing a profession where in my experience your profits come in waves, and not a nice £ amount per day, week or even month.If you intend to follow a systems or mechanical (non-discretionary [although in essence all trading is discretionary]) trading route, do rigorous backtesting of a method which you believe will have a positive expectancy. You'll need at least a few hundred trades in my opinion to determine whether your method has an edge, and those few hundred trades have to be executed exactly the same in order to ascertain your method's potential.

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Good advice.

JRP2891 said:

If you intend to follow a systems or mechanical (non-discretionary [although in essence all trading is discretionary]) trading route, do rigorous backtesting of a method which you believe will have a positive expectancy. You'll need at least a few hundred trades in my opinion to determine whether your method has an edge, and those few hundred trades have to be executed exactly the same in order to ascertain your method's potential.

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With the cheap software and data available these days, there are no excuses for not doing this kind of research. It used to take Ed Seykota a weekend to run a few rudimentary backtests.. these days it takes a few seconds.

meanreversion said:

With the cheap software and data available these days, there are no excuses for not doing this kind of research. It used to take Ed Seykota a weekend to run a few rudimentary backtests.. these days it takes a few seconds.

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You cant make a living off trading a 20k account.

brettus said:

You cant make a living off trading a 20k account.

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That's probably true although I know a chap who at one point was borrowing money on his credit cards to trade, and is now worth a healthy 7 figures.

You're chances of making a living off £20k are slim, no question, but given enough time and perseverance, a £20k account could become something considerable. There's a difference between cautious and blind optimism, and sometimes there's too much negativity about the outcome of trading. If you're convinced you're going to fail, you probably will (there's also a Seykota quote along these lines).

standleymt said:

Hi I am intregued to know if there are really people out there making a decent consistent living trading.

I am a property investor and have a position in Silver via Bullionvault. Everytime I have a go at trading by selling when I think it is going to go down it carries on going up! I end up thinking sh1t I need to get back in and do so. It is then at that point it crashes!! I have managed to do the same in reverse to...!

I do take a long (12 month+ view) and believe silver has some way to go while interest rates are negative and so far I am sat on a decent profit.

But back to my original question do people really earn money trading sat at home doing their thing? Thanks

I need to clarify my current view which I am hoping to update (at least for trading anyway):
Investing - taking a long term view based on current and historical knowledge.
Trading - gambling

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Yes there are.

Investing without knowledge is gambling.

Trading with knowledge is not gambling.

To be successful in any profession requires time, dedication, education and training. As one becomes better in their profession, they get better rewarded. Your expectations should be similar for trading as a profession that provides you with a living.

HowardCohodas said:

Yes there are.

Investing without knowledge is gambling.

Trading with knowledge is not gambling.

To be successful in any profession requires time, dedication, education and training. As one becomes better in their profession, they get better rewarded. Your expectations should be similar for trading as a profession that provides you with a living.

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Hark, listen to the man who has been successfully trading since, er, August .. !

(PS buy and hold doesn't count as trading, thought I'd pre-empt that)

errr guys - isn't the OP just pushing some dodgy silver bullion service?

meanreversion said:

Hark, listen to the man who has been successfully trading since, er, August .. !

(PS buy and hold doesn't count as trading, thought I'd pre-empt that)

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I am sure Howard will see no irony in this - he's American after all.

They think irony is something done in a Chinese laundry after washy.

meanreversion said:

Hark, listen to the man who has been successfully trading since, er, August .. !

(PS buy and hold doesn't count as trading, thought I'd pre-empt that)

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Thanks for the compliment.