The end of the EU

Pat494

Pat494

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I think the EU is in terminal decline

As soon as the Germans get fed up supporting the lame duck countries with their debts then it will collapse whether Trichet and the EU supporters like it or not.
Greece. Portugal, Italy, Ireland etc. haven't played a fair game. They have just spent and spent what they didn't have. They are like black holes sucking the EU dry of resources.

Even on a political level a lot of the laws that everyone has to rubber stamp are pretty ridiculous especially on the human rights for terrorists and criminals, immigration etc. The MEPs enjoy a sumptious lifestyle and produce a load of hot air and rubbish.

The annual cost to Britain, France and Germany is just too great and the returns are too little. The PIIGs got fat on 30 years of handouts and are now bust. The only sensible course if anyone wants to save the EU is to eject them from the EU lifeboat.
 
Consider the many various States in the USA and the dollar...It's very early days for The Euro and the growing pains, it's a brand new currency and has been a massive success. It was supposed to rank as par with the dollar, perhaps that is where we're headed...?

There's some pips to be hoovered up on the way down eh Pat? ;)
 
Pat494 said:
I think the EU is in terminal decline

As soon as the Germans get fed up supporting the lame duck countries with their debts then it will collapse whether Trichet and the EU supporters like it or not.
Greece. Portugal, Italy, Ireland etc. haven't played a fair game. They have just spent and spent what they didn't have. They are like black holes sucking the EU dry of resources.

Even on a political level a lot of the laws that everyone has to rubber stamp are pretty ridiculous especially on the human rights for terrorists and criminals, immigration etc. The MEPs enjoy a sumptious lifestyle and produce a load of hot air and rubbish.

The annual cost to Britain, France and Germany is just too great and the returns are too little. The PIIGs got fat on 30 years of handouts and are now bust. The only sensible course if anyone wants to save the EU is to eject them from the EU lifeboat.
Click to expand...

The Federal States of Europe will be terminated but the common market with reduced tarriffs and free movement of labour should continue.

This harmonisation of taxes and the single currency is basically inflexible and cannot sustain the diversity of the economies in various regions.

Common market and free trading zones great idea.

Don't throw the baby out with the dirty water old boy...
 
Atilla said:
The Federal States of Europe will be terminated but the common market with reduced tarriffs and free movement of labour should continue.

This harmonisation of taxes and the single currency is basically inflexible and cannot sustain the diversity of the economies in various regions.

Common market and free trading zones great idea.

Don't throw the baby out with the dirty water old boy...
Click to expand...

Crikey! More good sense from Atilla. Have you been smoking some kind of thinking drug?

The only thing I would take issue with is that a free trade zone depends on where you're standing. If you're in, it's a free trade zone. If you're out, it's a protectionist block.

Where does this leave, for example, producers in third world countries? It's inefficient for us and harmful for them. The irony being that the EU imposes tariffs on their goods, preventing them from trading freely with us which would improve their lives and their economy. The EU then gives aid to these countries, many of which are run by tin-pot dictatorships, because they're so poor (how can they lift themselves out of poverty without trade?). Government to government aid in these circumstances is invariably harmful.

So free trade zones by all means, but let's widen them, making all better off. This is enlightened selfishness :)(y), and would make the world a better place.

Or we could continue to pay French farmers massive subsidies to keep on producing tons of food that nobody wants. We can then dump this on third world countries at below local production cost, hampering their farmers, preventing the development of their economies, perpetuating the cycle of poverty...you can probably see where this is going.
 
Pat494 said:
I think the EU is in terminal decline

As soon as the Germans get fed up supporting the lame duck countries with their debts then it will collapse whether Trichet and the EU supporters like it or not.
Greece. Portugal, Italy, Ireland etc. haven't played a fair game. They have just spent and spent what they didn't have. They are like black holes sucking the EU dry of resources.

Even on a political level a lot of the laws that everyone has to rubber stamp are pretty ridiculous especially on the human rights for terrorists and criminals, immigration etc. The MEPs enjoy a sumptious lifestyle and produce a load of hot air and rubbish.

The annual cost to Britain, France and Germany is just too great and the returns are too little. The PIIGs got fat on 30 years of handouts and are now bust. The only sensible course if anyone wants to save the EU is to eject them from the EU lifeboat.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, but the problem is the bureaucrat class that runs all European countries would cut off their own balls with a rusty spoon before they'd allow their anti-democratic "project" to fail.
 
FX Bandit said:
Crikey! More good sense from Atilla. Have you been smoking some kind of thinking drug?

The only thing I would take issue with is that a free trade zone depends on where you're standing. If you're in, it's a free trade zone. If you're out, it's a protectionist block.

Where does this leave, for example, producers in third world countries? It's inefficient for us and harmful for them. The irony being that the EU imposes tariffs on their goods, preventing them from trading freely with us which would improve their lives and their economy. The EU then gives aid to these countries, many of which are run by tin-pot dictatorships, because they're so poor (how can they lift themselves out of poverty without trade?). Government to government aid in these circumstances is invariably harmful.

So free trade zones by all means, but let's widen them, making all better off. This is enlightened selfishness :)(y), and would make the world a better place.

Or we could continue to pay French farmers massive subsidies to keep on producing tons of food that nobody wants. We can then dump this on third world countries at below local production cost, hampering their farmers, preventing the development of their economies, perpetuating the cycle of poverty...you can probably see where this is going.
Click to expand...


Fair points. These policies have to be bilateral agreements or tit for tat responses.

Banana wars and or subsidies with respect to Boeing and Airbus comes to mind. I do think we need some level of protection.

Dumping and destroying endegenous production - most countries and industries are wise to this act these days and I'm not sure if it still happens to the same extent as before.

I recall Bush raising tariffs on steel in the US only to drive up the cost of steel as it was too expensive to produce in the US and then national industries started complaining they were losing the international competition because their raw costs were higher and thus could not complete. Then stell tariffs were removed and prices came down.

These policies I think need to be carefullly examined with cost benefit analysis and implemented strategically.

Protection can cut for you or against you. One can argue either way. I would like to tread on the middle ground. Free trade can be just as bad as protectionism.

But as I say fair points and tough questions to answer.
 
the difference with U.S, is that they have a federal govt and a federal reserve bank

if the euro does get into serious difficulties eurocrats may move towards the same structure
sooner rather than later

but rumours of the demise of the euro or EU are greatly exaggerated
 
Mornington Crescent said:
the difference with U.S, is that they have a federal govt and a federal reserve bank

if the euro does get into serious difficulties eurocrats may move towards the same structure
sooner rather than later

but rumours of the demise of the euro or EU are greatly exaggerated
Click to expand...

Germans are calling for Governments and tax payers not to bail out risk takers. (I agree by the way).

What would happen to the Euro if the PIGS were released to market forces???
 
Atilla said:
Germans are calling for Governments and tax payers not to bail out risk takers. (I agree by the way).

What would happen to the Euro if the PIGS were released to market forces???
Click to expand...

It would be cheaper for people outside the Eurozone to go there on holiday :).
 
Atilla said:
Germans are calling for Governments and tax payers not to bail out risk takers. (I agree by the way).

What would happen to the Euro if the PIGS were released to market forces???
Click to expand...

The all one currency would have to be abandoned for a start and that would crash the EU
imho

There are vast savings to be made, like get rid of the useless eurocrats and MEPs in Brussels and then duplicated in Strassburg

Keep the EU as a commercial entity and if a foreign policy decision for instance is needed then the various foreign ministers meet, ditto security, defense etc.
 
Pat494 said:
The all one currency would have to be abandoned for a start and that would crash the EU
imho

There are vast savings to be made, like get rid of the useless eurocrats and MEPs in Brussels and then duplicated in Strassburg

Keep the EU as a commercial entity and if a foreign policy decision for instance is needed then the various foreign ministers meet, ditto security, defense etc.
Click to expand...


Great stuff all sounds good to me... :clap:

Could do with some nice holidays... Italy would be my choice of destination... :clap:
 
Mornington Crescent said:
the difference with U.S, is that they have a federal govt and a federal reserve bank

if the euro does get into serious difficulties eurocrats may move towards the same structure
sooner rather than later

but rumours of the demise of the euro or EU are greatly exaggerated
Click to expand...

The Federal govt is regularly stuck by having different parties controling the Presidentcy, the Senate and The House and by their ramshackle systems cobbled togethor over the years but not well thought out e.g. filibustering, tacking local issues onto major Bills as bribes etc.

The Fed is just another cobbling togethor, this time of major banks. Who let's face it are enriching themselves as their number 1 priority, their country comes second. We shouldn't copy all their mistakes as well. Their current plight is mainly because of flawed systems and the wrong attitude - "greed is good" etc.
 
1 The Economy: Tax, Budget & Regulation
· Save up to £120bn a year by leaving the EU. No British jobs or trade will be lost
· Take tax off the minimum wage by raising the tax threshold to £11,500
· Abolish the ‘tax on jobs’: phase out employers’ NI contributions over five years
· Axe Britain’s gigantic quango mountain and public sector non-jobs to reduce UK national debt
· Release businesses from 120,000 EU laws
· Replace VAT with a ‘Local Sales Tax’ to help councils and local businesses
* Pool pensions for an equal payout

2 The Economy: Jobs, Enterprise & Skills
· Create one million new skilled jobs with public and private investment in a five-point public works programme to provide defence equipment, nuclear power stations, flood and coastal protection, transport infrastructure including high-speed rail lines, and new prisons
· Abolish costly EU schemes such as carbon capping, emissions trading, and landfill taxes
· Amend the UK Takeover Code to prevent foreign interests from gaining control of British companies
* Company bosses can earn up to a maximum of 5 times as much as the lowest paid worker in the company.

3 Immigration & Asylum
· End uncontrolled mass immigration
· Introduce an immediate five-year freeze on immigration for permanent settlement
· Regain control of Britain’s borders to stop foreign criminals from entering our country
· End abuse of the UK asylum system and hang convicted terrorists
· Introduce a strict new points-based visa system and time-limited work permits
· Triple the number of UK Borders Agency staff engaged in controlling immigration (to 30,000)

4 Prison
* Use prison as a corrective institution. Prisoners are released when cured.
* First degree murderers get automatic death sentence, carried out within 24 hours. None of this living in luxury at the public expense like the Yorkshire Ripper etc. for 40/50 years.

5. Parliament
* The House of Lords be elected by the over 50s. The youngsters who think they know everything are making balls-up after balls-up. They have barely been around "the block" of life.







It really is time the current 3 party system got their act togethor for Britain or move aside and let others in.
 
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The bulwarks of modern civilization, USA and EU, are really on the ropes.
Through shear mismanagement and incompetence they are on the verge of collapse.
While Bush, Blair/Brown are disappearing off into the sunset with their millions, ordinary people are left with trying to survive the crisis.

With tw*ts like Cameron in charge it will be a stern test. Cutting pensioner housing benefits really takes the biscuit in calousness. The pr*ck talks up fairness and does that. It won't affect the rich as to whether or not to turn the heating on for an hour or two a day or have a bit extra to eat. Fairness, he doesn't know the meaning of the word. What a hypocrite !! The Yorkshire Ripper has a better deal. The sc*mbag politicians should at least get some priorities right. The decent/honest poor deserve a better deal.

The Libs should dump the idiot
 
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Atilla said:
Great stuff all sounds good to me... :clap:

Could do with some nice holidays... Italy would be my choice of destination... :clap:
Click to expand...

I had nice hollidays before the Euro came in. The Euro has been good to us. What is wrong is that, although the currency has changed, the character of the people has not.

Everyone has been out to make the most of a good thing. The UK is no different but had the advantage of being inmensely rich. This wealth has, just, saved it from disaster as a nation but the poor people in the UK are just as worse off as the rest, do not deceive yourselves.

Nevertheless, governments in the UK, and other rich countries are telling their citizens that they shuld be happy that they are not like the Greeks, Irish, Portuguese or Spanish.

The Spanish government telling its citizens that everything in the garden is rosy and thet the UK owes a fearful amount of debt, the worst in Europe, so we must be thankful that we are not like the Irish who have, really, gone over the top, and could drag us down---THROUGH NO FAULT OF OUR OWN. :D

Such is life!
 
The thread is called the end of the EU - the bell is implied.

Laydeeees an' gennelmen, the end of the EU:

Herman_Van_Rompuy_300.jpg
 
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