Would a Pinbar by any other name....?

[TheBramble]

I’m not really into pinbars for all sorts of reasons, primarily that I no longer see the close as being a definitive ‘event’, rather more of an arbitrary ‘decision’ and also I’m far more interested in the intent of the price structure rather than its development.

Having said that though, there seems to be enormous interest in this particular chart structure and I wonder if you pinbar aficionados aren’t missing a trick or two…

If we take it that there exists a broad correlation between candle formations and pinbars it isn’t too far off beam to suggest a bear pinbar (heralding a potential bear reversal) is equivalent to Shooting Star and a bull pinbar (heralding a potential bull reversal) is equivalent to a Hammer. All on board so far?

But what about the Hanging Man and the Inverted Hammer?

The hanging man is pretty much the same structure as a bear reversal, but the pinbar is reversed, pointing back down into the ‘eyes’. As with the Inverted Hammer, this is a potential bull reversal with the ‘nose’ pointing back up into the ‘face’.

If you’re into pinbars, taking these two additional constructs into account will potentially double you potential trade setups.

I’ll be interested to see if any of you find the relative effectiveness of these two new ‘pinbars’ to be of a similar, or better, quality than the ones with which you currently work.

 

[lurkerlurker]

Very interesting. If I see any of those setups develop in real time I'll keep an eye on how a trade would have developed. However, pullbacks are perfectly normal in a healthy trend and I think seeing these sorts of patterns as being a reversal might be placing too much significance on the close. I think it would be important to look at price action on the following bar before making a decision.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't had more interest.

 

[TheBramble]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't had more interest.

That, is actually more interesting than the original subject matter.

 

[counter_violent]

Very surprising really...I only just spotted the thread...perhaps other threads in this section swamped it !

Anyway back to the topic...as lurker commented last week, having been caught on the wrong side of a gold pinbar taken in isolation in a blow off phase...he immediately recognised this situation in his post analysis of the failed trade.

I expect the answer is the same to Brambles proposition......supporting factors.

cv

 

[grantx]

Mr Bramble,

Good day, Sir.

I assume candlestick formations have equivalent bar (high,low,close) formations. Could you state your ideas in bar terms, please?

Grant.

 

[TheBramble]

Mr Bramble,

Good day, Sir.

I assume candlestick formations have equivalent bar (high,low,close) formations. Could you state your ideas in bar terms, please?

YOU AGAIN!!!

I thought we'd seen the last of you after the scuppering of The President. Have you no shame...?

I'm not sure that I had any ideas mon generale. Just looking to see if anyone had done any research into these flavours of mutant pins given the current popularity of their vanilla cousins.

I just figured if you're going to get into interpretation at the microscopic level (three bars at a time) and start discussing the psychology behind it, you really need to work out a plausible hypothesis for why these variants do or don’t ‘work’ along the same lines if you’re at all serious about trading it or them. As LL said, he’s surprised there’s been so little interest. And as I said in response, I’m not surprised at all, just interested in the psychology of those that apparently use psychology to make their daily bread.

 

[wasp]

spot the signals!

Its interesting how much credit is put in to the pin bar all by itself.

2 different metatraders, same market, same timeframe, yet only 1 pin bar..... but can you spot how many other indications of a reversal there are...?

I see 4 btw!

 

[neil]

for starters

Its interesting how much credit is put in to the pin bar all by itself.

2 different metatraders, same market, same timeframe, yet only 1 pin bar..... but can you spot how many other indications of a reversal there are...?

I see 4 btw!

Resistance from the left of Pin bar/ consolidation.........etc

 

[lurkerlurker]

Very surprising really...I only just spotted the thread...perhaps other threads in this section swamped it !

Anyway back to the topic...as lurker commented last week, having been caught on the wrong side of a gold pinbar taken in isolation in a blow off phase...he immediately recognised this situation in his post analysis of the failed trade.

I expect the answer is the same to Brambles proposition......supporting factors.

cv

The irony is that I was taking about buying an upside breakout from 2 consecutive daily inside bars the day before there was a breakout north. I discussed this with TD, but since I don't have a proper strategy for buying breakouts from inside bars I passed it up.

The thing is, I recognised the phase of the market and was bullish, until taking the pin bar signal forced me into a short. I was quite annoyed at myself for doing a flip flop and taking a bar in isolation.

 

[searchlight]

Its interesting how much credit is put in to the pin bar all by itself.

2 different metatraders, same market, same timeframe, yet only 1 pin bar..... but can you spot how many other indications of a reversal there are...?

I see 4 btw!

Hi Wasp,
are they 3/4 hour bars? If so discrepancy could be due to one broker opening for business earlier then the other. I read a viewpoint somewhere that says for that reason 1hour bars are more reliable to be looking to know what the rest of the world looking .(i.e intraday s/r levels.) . I don't know the validity of this viewpoint ; your charts reminded me that viewpoint , so I thought I share it.....

regards,

Searchlight

 

[lurkerlurker]

Its interesting how much credit is put in to the pin bar all by itself.

2 different metatraders, same market, same timeframe, yet only 1 pin bar..... but can you spot how many other indications of a reversal there are...?

I see 4 btw!

Very good. Maybe someone should make a few posts about S/R and blending bars either here or on TD's thread.

The close of a bar is arbitrary. As dbphoenix pointed out over on the PV forum, price doesn't care about the "bars" on your chart -they are just a window through which to view price. Volume bars, 5m, 15m, 1h - the close is all arbitrary.

Blending bars should help with setups...

 

[dbphoenix]

Very good. Maybe someone should make a few posts about S/R and blending bars either here or on TD's thread.

The close of a bar is arbitrary. As dbphoenix pointed out over on the PV forum, price doesn't care about the "bars" on your chart -they are just a window through which to view price. Volume bars, 5m, 15m, 1h - the close is all arbitrary.

Blending bars should help with setups...

They have ([made] a few posts about S/R and blending bars . . . ).

Making this information available is only one aspect of the learning process. Finding ways for people to access it is another. Getting them to do it is yet another.

But this is one reason why teaching to groups was developed: it's much more efficient to teach thirty people all at once than to teach each of thirty individuals one at a time. But there is no t2w curriculum and no classes. Someone asked earlier why these ideas hadn't been discussed before. But they have. Many times. But there's always a new wave on the horizon, most if not all of whom will consider trading by the crossing of one moving average over another (for example) to be a revelation and the key to untold riches.

So books are written, perhaps in large part because the authors tire of repeating the same information over and over and over again. But then they fall into the trap of believing that their way is the best way, or even the only way. And there's that indicator that they developed which will solve all the reader's problems. And that course has to be advertised somehow. And there are, of course, hundreds (at least) of books to choose from.

However, when one learns how and why price moves, nearly all of this becomes irrelevant: candles, bars (time bars, tick bars, price bars, constant volume bars, range bars, etc, etc), all the hundreds of indicators (including the bars themselves). Once one breaks below the surface and sees how the gears move and work together, whatever is happening on the surface -- regardless of how pretty it is -- is extraneous and hardly a matter of curiosity.

So if one wants to make a success of "pinbars", he is more likely to do so if he gets beneath the surface to determine what is going on down there rather than perseverate on the time interval and the data provider and the charting program and the shape and length and position of the bar he thinks he sees.

 

[lurkerlurker]

They have ([made] a few posts about S/R and blending bars . . . ).

Making this information available is only one aspect of the learning process. Finding ways for people to access it is another. Getting them to do it is yet another.

But this is one reason why teaching to groups was developed: it's much more efficient to teach thirty people all at once than to teach each of thirty individuals one at a time. But there is no t2w curriculum and no classes. Someone asked earlier why these ideas hadn't been discussed before. But they have. Many times. But there's always a new wave on the horizon, most if not all of whom will consider trading by the crossing of one moving average over another (for example) to be a revelation and the key to untold riches.

So books are written, perhaps in large part because the authors tire of repeating the same information over and over and over again. But then they fall into the trap of believing that their way is the best way, or even the only way. And there's that indicator that they developed which will solve all the reader's problems. And that course has to be advertised somehow. And there are, of course, hundreds (at least) of books to choose from.

However, when one learns how and why price moves, nearly all of this becomes irrelevant: candles, bars (time bars, tick bars, price bars, constant volume bars, range bars, etc, etc), all the hundreds of indicators (including the bars themselves). Once one breaks below the surface and sees how the gears move and work together, whatever is happening on the surface -- regardless of how pretty it is -- is extraneous and hardly a matter of curiosity.

So if one wants to make a success of "pinbars", he is more likely to do so if he gets beneath the surface to determine what is going on down there rather than perseverate on the time interval and the data provider and the charting program and the shape and length and position of the bar he thinks he sees.

Excellent post DB. I've read quite a bit of your private forum, and also Firewalker's journal - you explain price very well indeed.

 

[tune]

Excellent post DB. I've read quite a bit of your private forum, and also Firewalker's journal - you explain price very well indeed.

Have you read the book written by Db?

If you think his posts are useful...

 

[lurkerlurker]

Have you read the book written by Db?

If you think his posts are useful...

Not the whole book -the PDF extracts published in the PV forum.

 

[grantx]

Bramble,

Just tell me wtf they are, will you?

Grant.

 

[fibonelli]

Hi TheBramble,

I've observed Hangman candles printing *1-3 bars after a top reversal candle(s).

The logic would seem to be the behaviour of the "johnny come latelys" buying the dip.

Indeed, the reversal candle can also be, for example, a low close doji, inverted hammer, outside bar reversal and a hangman. Admittedly, the pinocchio bar is a psychologically very important candle imho.

Just as there is more than one type of momentum divergence there is more than one type of candle reversal.

Supporting factors are very important eg Resistance, chart pattern(s), candle sequence, multiple TF analysis, fibs, momentum etc.

*30 min TF

 

[Lightning McQueen]

Hi Grant

Pin bar – abbreviation of Pinocchio bar which you wanted it in bar terms rather than candle, I first became aware of them in one of martin prings books

Pin bars introduction

 

[dbphoenix]

Excellent post DB. I've read quite a bit of your private forum, and also Firewalker's journal - you explain price very well indeed.

I try, but Sebastian Manby's (VSATrader) latest thread should not be overlooked by anyone interested in this subject. Straightforward, practically no jargon (if any), an easily available dataset (the ES), and if one were to follow a tick chart along with the posted chart and audio commentary, much of what has been said recently about the coninuous flow of price and trading by price would make a lot more sense.

 

[grantx]

Lightning,

I have a copy of this - thank you for the reminder (like everything else, printed then forgotten).

I am familiar with the ideas behind pin bars but thought our friend Herr Bramble was offering something profound with his references to Hanging baskets and Swinging 60's.

I'll look into candlesticks myself.

Grant.