Trading Experience Required

Goldmember21

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Hi Guys,

Couldn't find a thread to answer what I'm looking for, hope someone can give me some pointers...

I'm about to go into my last year of University studying Economics, have just completed two short-term summer internships, 1 at a bank on their prop trading floor in forex, and 1 on the London Metal Exchange as a clerk.

Looking at jobs in trading for when I leave Uni and get on with my career, pretty much all trading jobs require at least 2 years market experience. I wondered what actually counts as market experience, and how would you get this if you need experience... to get experience. (Sounds like a catch 22 to me?)

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Phil
 
probably refers to live trading experience, or experience working at a trading firm
 
probably refers to live trading experience, or experience working at a trading firm

Thanks,

When they ask for '2 years market experience/exposure' or something along those lines, would you say being a traders assistant counts, or any job requiring close attention to the markets?
 
Prolly two years on the job in some trading-related capacity e.g. desk assistant/junior etc Maybe risk too but I dunno.
 
Or maybe these guys are not right. Perhaps the 'market experience' they are looking for is your experience to 'market' yourself. The experience would be gained every time you try. When you give up on a battle before you even start it, that's no way to win. To win it, you have to be in it. See if you can get the essence of this very simple principle that works in many areas of life as well as in trading.
 
Or maybe these guys are not right. Perhaps the 'market experience' they are looking for is your experience to 'market' yourself. The experience would be gained every time you try. When you give up on a battle before you even start it, that's no way to win. To win it, you have to be in it. See if you can get the essence of this very simple principle that works in many areas of life as well as in trading.

Yeah... I don't think thats what they're talking about. But thanks.
 
Very well said BeginnerJoe. Oftentimes when we're beginning carrier in whatever field, we're too afraid to determine our own reality. Goldmember21 - you have "two years market experience" now you just have to identify what that means to YOU and how you're going to sell that identification to whoever you want to work for.
 
your summer internships at a bank and LME might help serve as your springboard to your future job. hit them back and see if they can accommodate you; they might have some openings for on the job trainees now and in the future, or they know of partner firms/branches who do. perhaps you can contact them often to get updates.

do not be afraid to ask around for referrals.... networking skills will help. Good luck, Goldmember
 
your summer internships at a bank and LME might help serve as your springboard to your future job. hit them back and see if they can accommodate you; they might have some openings for on the job trainees now and in the future, or they know of partner firms/branches who do. perhaps you can contact them often to get updates.

do not be afraid to ask around for referrals.... networking skills will help. Good luck, Goldmember

Thanks, think these are my strongest paths, will keep at it until its mine! ha
 
I think the 2 years market experience they need from you are the time you worked in a trading/finance company.
 
Hi Guys,

Couldn't find a thread to answer what I'm looking for, hope someone can give me some pointers...

I'm about to go into my last year of University studying Economics, have just completed two short-term summer internships, 1 at a bank on their prop trading floor in forex, and 1 on the London Metal Exchange as a clerk.

Looking at jobs in trading for when I leave Uni and get on with my career, pretty much all trading jobs require at least 2 years market experience. I wondered what actually counts as market experience, and how would you get this if you need experience... to get experience. (Sounds like a catch 22 to me?)

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Phil

Wait and see what the grad recruitment round will bring, are you at a redbrick uni? If so, you get a 2:1 or 1st and you have what sounds like decent internships on your resume, you should be able to secure a place on one of the grad schemes at a bank. Also, the more reputable prop-firms do run some form of grad scheme as well so that might be another avenue.

As Fring says, definitely network. My friend got her job post-study after getting chatting to the head of fixed income at an asset manager.

Seriously, grad scheme at a bank will be awesome in terms of how your CV will look. Also, what about the bank where you interned at, banks generally like to take on interns that have performed well. If you've kept in contact with the people on the desk, go to them direct. Even if you haven't, go to them direct, you have nothing to lose! If they don't reply then speak to HR first and likely they'll advise you to apply but you never know, they may speak to the desk first, check what they thought of you and if they give you a thumbs up, you could get through the inital first rounds.
 
Wait and see what the grad recruitment round will bring, are you at a redbrick uni? If so, you get a 2:1 or 1st and you have what sounds like decent internships on your resume, you should be able to secure a place on one of the grad schemes at a bank. Also, the more reputable prop-firms do run some form of grad scheme as well so that might be another avenue.

As Fring says, definitely network. My friend got her job post-study after getting chatting to the head of fixed income at an asset manager.

Seriously, grad scheme at a bank will be awesome in terms of how your CV will look. Also, what about the bank where you interned at, banks generally like to take on interns that have performed well. If you've kept in contact with the people on the desk, go to them direct. Even if you haven't, go to them direct, you have nothing to lose! If they don't reply then speak to HR first and likely they'll advise you to apply but you never know, they may speak to the desk first, check what they thought of you and if they give you a thumbs up, you could get through the inital first rounds.

Thanks,
I'm not at a redbrick unfortunately, on for a decent grade though. The bank I interned at doesn't do a grad scheme, I tried convincing them to while I was there, will push for that and if not will obviously still apply. Main thing holding me back from big banks are my A levels.. I got both of my internships through networking.

Also, could you list any prop-firms for me? Id prefer this than a BB, the thought of sitting making pointless graphs for 10 years doesn't really attract me..

Cheers again!
 
Thanks,
I'm not at a redbrick unfortunately, on for a decent grade though. The bank I interned at doesn't do a grad scheme, I tried convincing them to while I was there, will push for that and if not will obviously still apply. Main thing holding me back from big banks are my A levels.. I got both of my internships through networking.

Also, could you list any prop-firms for me? Id prefer this than a BB, the thought of sitting making pointless graphs for 10 years doesn't really attract me..

Cheers again!
Um, in terms of prop shops, I've been out of that world for a few years now so maybe someone else that's either trading in one or has done recently can help you but I guess, optiver, tibra, ..... i'm sure there's a thread on here listing prop-shops and arcades.

Did you just speak to HR or the people on the desk? If on the desk then always worth seeing what's going on now anyway, if you only spoke to HR then definitely speak to the desk bods as if they tell HR they want to hire you then HR will obey their command!

Unless you work on an exotics desk or a pretty quanty (which these days is most...) prop desk then you won't be making pointless graphs all day, you'll be trading all day! The flow desks particularly in some areas such as fixed income, credit etc are not at all boring. There is an idea that you just make client deals and that is it but as the recent dodd-frank discussions have highlighted, it is a little more complex than that, you need to anticipate a) where you think the market is going and b) which way you want your book to be as a result. Therefore, most desks end up running fairly sizeable prop positions. Plus when my friend went to work for a bank after just a year of prop-shop trading, his boss said, so you used to trade futures, which futures? Ok we'll give you some limits on them as well!! Things have changed a bit with the much closer scrutiny but trust me, if you can get onto a bank desk, dont question it, do it!! If you don't like it, you can always go into a prop house afterwards.

In regards to education, don't sweat it if you're not at a redbrick, if you are on for good grades and can make the right connections, you'll still be able to get in. Even if you don't, you can still make it! If i had space to tell you my path, you'd not believe that i've managed to work my way into a hedge fund and am one of the best performing traders. It can be done but you have to keep pressing on. I remember at some points, my friends and colleagues would say that I should just be happy with what I had but I refused to give up, went and sorted out my academic credentials (they were really bad previously) and now whilst I'm in a good place, i'm not finished and I still have more ambitions to be filled. Definitely network, definitely do everything you can think of (things like getting your IMC or SI exams under your belt) and definitely definitely apply to as many jobs as possible, in my mba year I sent out maybe 100 applications, went to numerous interviews but in the end, the position i got came through previous contact i'd had with the company 2 years prior! It's weird the way things work out but my point is that some of the things you do now whilst not appearing as a success may lay the first step for you to later get to where you want.

ps lol, the graphs may be boring, the grand prixs, footie mathces, track days, clubs and so forth that your brokers take you to are not quite so boring :p
 
Um, in terms of prop shops, I've been out of that world for a few years now so maybe someone else that's either trading in one or has done recently can help you but I guess, optiver, tibra, ..... i'm sure there's a thread on here listing prop-shops and arcades.

Did you just speak to HR or the people on the desk? If on the desk then always worth seeing what's going on now anyway, if you only spoke to HR then definitely speak to the desk bods as if they tell HR they want to hire you then HR will obey their command!

Unless you work on an exotics desk or a pretty quanty (which these days is most...) prop desk then you won't be making pointless graphs all day, you'll be trading all day! The flow desks particularly in some areas such as fixed income, credit etc are not at all boring. There is an idea that you just make client deals and that is it but as the recent dodd-frank discussions have highlighted, it is a little more complex than that, you need to anticipate a) where you think the market is going and b) which way you want your book to be as a result. Therefore, most desks end up running fairly sizeable prop positions. Plus when my friend went to work for a bank after just a year of prop-shop trading, his boss said, so you used to trade futures, which futures? Ok we'll give you some limits on them as well!! Things have changed a bit with the much closer scrutiny but trust me, if you can get onto a bank desk, dont question it, do it!! If you don't like it, you can always go into a prop house afterwards.

In regards to education, don't sweat it if you're not at a redbrick, if you are on for good grades and can make the right connections, you'll still be able to get in. Even if you don't, you can still make it! If i had space to tell you my path, you'd not believe that i've managed to work my way into a hedge fund and am one of the best performing traders. It can be done but you have to keep pressing on. I remember at some points, my friends and colleagues would say that I should just be happy with what I had but I refused to give up, went and sorted out my academic credentials (they were really bad previously) and now whilst I'm in a good place, i'm not finished and I still have more ambitions to be filled. Definitely network, definitely do everything you can think of (things like getting your IMC or SI exams under your belt) and definitely definitely apply to as many jobs as possible, in my mba year I sent out maybe 100 applications, went to numerous interviews but in the end, the position i got came through previous contact i'd had with the company 2 years prior! It's weird the way things work out but my point is that some of the things you do now whilst not appearing as a success may lay the first step for you to later get to where you want.

ps lol, the graphs may be boring, the grand prixs, footie mathces, track days, clubs and so forth that your brokers take you to are not quite so boring :p

Thats great help thanks! I'll have a search around for prop shops and arcades and get applying.

If you mean during my internships regarding HR or desk, they were both the heads of their desk, so obviously they'll be getting pestered from now until I graduate! haha.

When I said about the 'making graphs all day', it was more that I was under the impression that if I was to get into a big bank, as i'm not an uxbridge astrophysicist bla bla bla.. the chances of me ever actually becoming a trader there are slim to none! Maybe I'm mislead here? Or if not I guess I could get a few years under my belt and more options would open up. (Im in the mindset that its near on impossible to get in with the big boys!)

The exams are something I'm looking to do soon as well (before I graduate) trying to find out what exams would be the best to do, Im assuming they cost a bit to sit, and I'm still a student dont forget.... lol.

Thanks again though, really helpful and encouraging hearing someone who has got as far as you, hopefully can hear your story how sometime!

p.s. 'Entertainment' not bribery right? :LOL:
 
Depends on the bank in terms of not starting as a trader but moving into that position. Much more likely at an EU IB. Seems to be that US IBs have a much more rigid idea of the "path" a trader has/should take whilst at EU IBs it's not rare to find junior traders that are between 28-32. It's not impossible but don't get me wrong, it is difficult. The best piece of advice I can give is to be sheer bloody minded!! Don't listen to other people telling you you can't make it, you make your own destiny (to some extent!) so only by perserverence can you succeed. Easy to say, much harder to do!

I'd say, it's marginally better to trade prop in a prop shop for a year or 2 and then either see if you can make the step direct, (one of my friends did after a year) or go into a very closely-related position ie traders assistant and see if you can use that as a stepping stone. Of course, you might like trading in a prop shop so much that you change your outlook........

oh btwI know that DB were recruiting pretty heavily over the last couple of months and seeing as they've moved a lot of their market-facing positions to Birmingham that won't appeal to some so that could be an option. If you need some help with the online tests they do, I have a technique that works like a charm!

Exams are a tricky one, the IMC and SI (regs + 1 other) are the standard to get CF30 approval however, am pretty sure the SI exam only lasts for 6 months whilst the IMC lasts for 2 years. Not sure what the cost is now but probably looking at around £400-£500 all in inc official textbooks. Since you're studying economics, I wouldn't worry about getting BPP/7city extra tuition. It's really not that hard an exam :)

p.s. it says entertainment on the compliance form!! ;) Those brokers just get more business lol!!
 
Depends on the bank in terms of not starting as a trader but moving into that position. Much more likely at an EU IB. Seems to be that US IBs have a much more rigid idea of the "path" a trader has/should take whilst at EU IBs it's not rare to find junior traders that are between 28-32. It's not impossible but don't get me wrong, it is difficult. The best piece of advice I can give is to be sheer bloody minded!! Don't listen to other people telling you you can't make it, you make your own destiny (to some extent!) so only by perserverence can you succeed. Easy to say, much harder to do!

I'd say, it's marginally better to trade prop in a prop shop for a year or 2 and then either see if you can make the step direct, (one of my friends did after a year) or go into a very closely-related position ie traders assistant and see if you can use that as a stepping stone. Of course, you might like trading in a prop shop so much that you change your outlook........

oh btwI know that DB were recruiting pretty heavily over the last couple of months and seeing as they've moved a lot of their market-facing positions to Birmingham that won't appeal to some so that could be an option. If you need some help with the online tests they do, I have a technique that works like a charm!

Exams are a tricky one, the IMC and SI (regs + 1 other) are the standard to get CF30 approval however, am pretty sure the SI exam only lasts for 6 months whilst the IMC lasts for 2 years. Not sure what the cost is now but probably looking at around £400-£500 all in inc official textbooks. Since you're studying economics, I wouldn't worry about getting BPP/7city extra tuition. It's really not that hard an exam :)

p.s. it says entertainment on the compliance form!! ;) Those brokers just get more business lol!!

I see what your saying, btw, by DB do you mean Deutsch Bank ? I'm sure ill be back for the exam tips lol. Wouldn't bother me where in the world I had to go, just want to get a foot in!

Yeah... think those exams will clear out my overdraft nicely haha.

Im suprised IB's don't recruit regularly from prop shops, surely the props have employees with straight market, hands on experience the same as IB traders do? Obviously for remuneration reasons an IB is where id like to be at some point, but at the moment I think a prop is my best choice. Going to start applying to tibra, optiver, Liquidcap, schneider and a load more tonight. wish me luck! :)

Thanks a lot for all your advice by the way, has really been helpful. :D
 
try yourself with demo account my suggestion is practice it for several months and add the sum of what you have learn. If you are certain with what you have learn and practice enough, you may get into a real account. Happy trading
 
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