Trader turned teacher at prop firms

[Steakeater]

I often wondered why the teachers at prop firms could be bothered? If they are such good traders could a prop firm really pay them that much for them to just teach? Or is the sad fact that hardly anyone at prop firms are making money so these guys go to teaching to at least get a salary?

 

[forexanalyst]

The teachers often have a stake in the company and earn more money from 20-40 traders and training courses etc than they would grinding out a 15% return every year. An example from poker world, I earn about £30 an hour playing but would charge £100 an hour to teach hence it makes complete sense for me to do as much teaching as possible. In fact maybe if I was more business savvy I could start doing seminars, training courses and create a poker prop playing business to make even more money. I wouldn't need to play at all!! Only thing is that you have to follow your passion in life. It's true a lot of prop trading mentors are not amazing traders but it doesn't mean they won't teach you many important things. You still have to beat the market in your own way. They won't give you any black & white strategy, not one that works anyway!

 

[cablemonster]

The teachers often have a stake in the company and earn more money from 20-40 traders and training courses etc than they would grinding out a 15% return every year. An example from poker world, I earn about £30 an hour playing but would charge £100 an hour to teach hence it makes complete sense for me to do as much teaching as possible. In fact maybe if I was more business savvy I could start doing seminars, training courses and create a poker prop playing business to make even more money. I wouldn't need to play at all!! Only thing is that you have to follow your passion in life. It's true a lot of prop trading mentors are not amazing traders but it doesn't mean they won't teach you many important things. You still have to beat the market in your own way. They won't give you any black & white strategy, not one that works anyway!

Good post mate.

 

[NVP]

The teachers often have a stake in the company and earn more money from 20-40 traders and training courses etc than they would grinding out a 15% return every year. An example from poker world, I earn about £30 an hour playing but would charge £100 an hour to teach hence it makes complete sense for me to do as much teaching as possible. In fact maybe if I was more business savvy I could start doing seminars, training courses and create a poker prop playing business to make even more money. I wouldn't need to play at all!! Only thing is that you have to follow your passion in life. It's true a lot of prop trading mentors are not amazing traders but it doesn't mean they won't teach you many important things. You still have to beat the market in your own way. They won't give you any black & white strategy, not one that works anyway!

one of the best responses ive seen for a long time ......welcome Forexanalyst

N

 

[Steakeater]

The teachers often have a stake in the company and earn more money from 20-40 traders and training courses etc than they would grinding out a 15% return every year. An example from poker world, I earn about £30 an hour playing but would charge £100 an hour to teach hence it makes complete sense for me to do as much teaching as possible. In fact maybe if I was more business savvy I could start doing seminars, training courses and create a poker prop playing business to make even more money. I wouldn't need to play at all!! Only thing is that you have to follow your passion in life. It's true a lot of prop trading mentors are not amazing traders but it doesn't mean they won't teach you many important things. You still have to beat the market in your own way. They won't give you any black & white strategy, not one that works anyway!

I would have thought that a successful futures trader would make substantially more than 15% return since he is leveraged?

 

[NVP]

I would have thought that a successful futures trader would make substantially more than 15% return since he is leveraged?

leverage cuts both way .........

 

[forexanalyst]

I would have thought that a successful futures trader would make substantially more than 15% return since he is leveraged?

If your expected return is above 30% then you are taking on too much risk over a long horizon. However if the prospect of hitting a zero bank roll doesn't phase you then you can run your edge a little harder which is in the end what most traders do I think, even though they might not picture it that way!

 

[Steakeater]

If your expected return is above 30% then you are taking on too much risk over a long horizon. However if the prospect of hitting a zero bank roll doesn't phase you then you can run your edge a little harder which is in the end what most traders do I think, even though they might not picture it that way!

By the sound of then if you have money you would be better to put it in a ftse tracker and get a real job! If the successful traders resort to teaching to make more money that says it all really!

 

[Seenitallbefore]

Many reasons

I often wondered why the teachers at prop firms could be bothered? If they are such good traders could a prop firm really pay them that much for them to just teach? Or is the sad fact that hardly anyone at prop firms are making money so these guys go to teaching to at least get a salary?

There are many reasons, both financial and emotional.

Emotionally, because I've traded for 25-30 years, with many breaks, I'm bored of looking at computers and trading. Trading has been fantastically good to me and I've enjoyed it, but I'm not passionate about it any more and when you lose your passion for anything, you cannot be the best any more. What gives me a huge good feeling now is to take on kids who start with nothing and be part of their journey into successful, wealthy traders. I've often found that successful people who are good at their jobs are happier than those who are not.

Financially, if I manage to train up people and they are making up to £100,000 a month and I'm taking 20-50% of it, it's clearly a no brainer. I make money, they make money and we all grow together.

Finally, I find we tend both to like and need each other, and so not many leave me, even though they are out of contract and could. With my being 20 odd years older than them, over the years I've been there to offer 30 years of experience through their relationship issues, financial planning, home buying, and all the good and bad stuff they've been through. Not only is this emotionally very satisfying, I believe that even the best traders stay good and stable with a day to day coach to call on. Some of my guys have left to go it alone on 100% and come back to be on 80-20 because they like it and they trade better with support.

My best guy had a £700,000 day two years ago and sometimes they even say thank you !!
Hope this might give you a take on why some people prefer training to trading.

 

[Steakeater]

There are many reasons, both financial and emotional.

Emotionally, because I've traded for 25-30 years, with many breaks, I'm bored of looking at computers and trading. Trading has been fantastically good to me and I've enjoyed it, but I'm not passionate about it any more and when you lose your passion for anything, you cannot be the best any more. What gives me a huge good feeling now is to take on kids who start with nothing and be part of their journey into successful, wealthy traders. I've often found that successful people who are good at their jobs are happier than those who are not.

Financially, if I manage to train up people and they are making up to £100,000 a month and I'm taking 20-50% of it, it's clearly a no brainer. I make money, they make money and we all grow together.

Finally, I find we tend both to like and need each other, and so not many leave me, even though they are out of contract and could. With my being 20 odd years older than them, over the years I've been there to offer 30 years of experience through their relationship issues, financial planning, home buying, and all the good and bad stuff they've been through. Not only is this emotionally very satisfying, I believe that even the best traders stay good and stable with a day to day coach to call on. Some of my guys have left to go it alone on 100% and come back to be on 80-20 because they like it and they trade better with support.

My best guy had a £700,000 day two years ago and sometimes they even say thank you !!
Hope this might give you a take on why some people prefer training to trading.

From all your mentoring and teaching which method/strategy would you say is the most successful style of trading?

 

[Seenitallbefore]

Doesn't matter !

From all your mentoring and teaching which method/strategy would you say is the most successful style of trading?

The basics are strong and the right motivation, and discipline.
That cuts out 90% of wannabe traders.
Everyone always asks 'What's the best method/strategy?' I don't know why, perhaps it's because from that comes confidence, security, a rule based system that one can have the discipline to follow? I expect my answer isn't what you want to hear - simple. Sorry !
The answer is that there are literally thousands of ways to enter and exit the markets that work. It could be breakout trend following, fading highs/lows, candlesticks, stochastics, mas, Market Profile, etc, etc. And then, of course, your time frame - daily once a day charts, hourly, 1 min ? Trade the news ? And then do you have a profit target or trailing stop ? The only thing I personally would say is that charts and technicals are better than economics or fundamentals which are notoriously bad at timing and therefore for active trading.
My experience is that the best way is to study and read all you can and then try a few approaches that 'speak to you' and FEEL right to you on a demo account. Some people like to get intense and work for just two hours a day on the open, others more long term, holding for a few hours or days. But whatever you do, one 'strategy' is to KNOW BEFORE you enter any trade, where you will get out if you are wrong, that this represents a tiny fraction of your capital and to cut your losses time after time, without fail. That's the best and only common 'strategy' to ALL systems.
Is Warren Buffet a successful investor ? Yes. Is George Soros ? Yes. Is Paul Jones ? Yes. But they all trade VERY, VERY differently, and if they each tried to do the other's systems or methods, they would all be failures. What they do have in common is a plan that they have found feels right for them, the discipline to repeat it time after time, good or bad, and the motivation to persevere and be the best.
Sorry it's not what you wanted to hear, but you can start by asking yourself
1. how much time am I going to be willing and able to do this for a day ?
2. Do I get over-emotional sitting, watching the action unfold ?
3. Or am I better looking at the charts first thing, putting in some resting orders with stops and then turning computer off ?
Goo luck

 

[rsh01]

Is Warren Buffet a successful investor ?

No.

Rolfe Winkler | Analysis & Opinion | Reuters.com

"Berkshire Hathaway, in which Buffett owns 27 percent, according to a recent proxy filing, has more than $26 billion invested in eight financial companies that have received bailout money....."

 

[Seenitallbefore]

No.

Rolfe Winkler | Analysis & Opinion | Reuters.com

"Berkshire Hathaway, in which Buffett owns 27 percent, according to a recent proxy filing, has more than $26 billion invested in eight financial companies that have received bailout money....."

By many risk adjusted return measures, we could agree that he's faded somewhat over the the last decade. But nevertheless, he's doing something right to be one of the richest people on the planet.
However, my point was more to illustrate that whatever method you choose, the key is that is fits/suits/speaks to your personality

 

[random12345]

If your expected return is above 30% then you are taking on too much risk over a long horizon. However if the prospect of hitting a zero bank roll doesn't phase you then you can run your edge a little harder which is in the end what most traders do I think, even though they might not picture it that way!

Hmm. This is nonsense.

You can't decide on the quality of a risk profile based solely on a total return % unless you had a full understanding of every single applicable discretionary and automated trading methodology on the planet.

 

[rsh01]

By many risk adjusted return measures, we could agree that he's faded somewhat over the the last decade. But nevertheless, he's doing something right to be one of the richest people on the planet.
However, my point was more to illustrate that whatever method you choose, the key is that is fits/suits/speaks to your personality

yep soz i shld have added that caveat.

agree with your point btw, but i recommend trying or at least getting familiar with loads of diff styles of trading, & trying them on diff t/f's - if its hard to determine do some demo trades varying your styles/t/fs accordingly. but you will need to have okish systems to begin with & other skills eg PA reading. fwiw i found starting with eod trading was v useful - trading daily trend but only if it lined up with W & M, cld continue at work, do 2 hours analysis an eve, see the bigger picture - id'ing s/r on weekly/monthly charts etc etc. and it was (i trade it occasionally now - its positional trading so trades lasted from cpl of days to cpl of mths.

as others have mentioned you can give the 3 ducks strategy to 2 v similar (risk,styles) ppl, but they may end up trading the same strategy but with significant differences eg entry & exit techniques, managing a trade, profit taking etc.

 

[forexanalyst]

Hmm. This is nonsense.

You can't decide on the quality of a risk profile based solely on a total return % unless you had a full understanding of every single applicable discretionary and automated trading methodology on the planet.

I made an estimation based on the fact that I have never heard of anyone able to return above 30% consistently over a long time horizon. If you know someone who has then give me his/her number

My point was not too expect unrealistic returns.

With regards to getting a proper job and investing in a tracker, it really depends on how much you can earn in a "proper" job and what is the opportunity cost of it (how much do you enjoy that job in comparison). Just like the trader coaches, it will change for different people.

 

[Crunchy1]

My personal opinion is that all these teachers and seminars are complete scam. Nobody will teach you or tell you how to earn money ever and in this case to the croud. Maybe there are some legit courses that simply discribes you how this and that works but definately not those that theaches you to trade profitably.

 

[Seenitallbefore]

You are cynical and wrong, my friend

My personal opinion is that all these teachers and seminars are complete scam. Nobody will teach you or tell you how to earn money ever and in this case to the croud. Maybe there are some legit courses that simply discribes you how this and that works but definately not those that theaches you to trade profitably.

Crowd, not croud.
Describes not discribes
Definitely, not definately
Self-education and improvement are prerequisites for success in any endeavour, be it trading or spelling. Effort and discipline are required.
I have been training and coaching people for 10 years and I can tell you categorically, that out of 100 applications that we receive, we stringently select 10, of those, 5 either we or they decide it's not for them, and of the 5 that remain, within a year they are making 20-100,000 a month.
Fact.
My best guy had a $700,000 day 2 years ago. And these are all disciplined, coached, risk adjusted returns, not wild gamblers.
You're right to exercise cynicism because they are too many scam 'trainers' out there who have never traded and know nothing. But there ARE also a handful of credible, successful ones, including me and a few others that I know.
Fact.
Why do they do it ? Apart from the kick of taking a newbie with no career and seeing them develop into successful, happy human beings, if I am on 50/50 with 10 traders making £10-100k a month, and once I've trained them and continue to coach and help them grow they do all the work, that's a LOT of money.
Go figure.

 

[pboyles]

Crowd, not croud.
Describes not discribes
Definitely, not definately
Self-education and improvement are prerequisites for success in any endeavour, be it trading or spelling. Effort and discipline are required.
I have been training and coaching people for 10 years and I can tell you categorically, that out of 100 applications that we receive, we stringently select 10, of those, 5 either we or they decide it's not for them, and of the 5 that remain, within a year they are making 20-100,000 a month.
Fact.
My best guy had a $700,000 day 2 years ago. And these are all disciplined, coached, risk adjusted returns, not wild gamblers.
You're right to exercise cynicism because they are too many scam 'trainers' out there who have never traded and know nothing. But there ARE also a handful of credible, successful ones, including me and a few others that I know.
Fact.
Why do they do it ? Apart from the kick of taking a newbie with no career and seeing them develop into successful, happy human beings, if I am on 50/50 with 10 traders making £10-100k a month, and once I've trained them and continue to coach and help them grow they do all the work, that's a LOT of money.
Go figure.

I have a feeling that you're going to offer us a marvellous chance to be mentored by you. Of course there will be a fee, just to make sure we're serious.

 

[PualoP]

Crowd, not croud.
Describes not discribes
Definitely, not definately
Self-education and improvement are prerequisites for success in any endeavour, be it trading or spelling. Effort and discipline are required.
I have been training and coaching people for 10 years and I can tell you categorically, that out of 100 applications that we receive, we stringently select 10, of those, 5 either we or they decide it's not for them, and of the 5 that remain, within a year they are making 20-100,000 a month.
Fact.
My best guy had a $700,000 day 2 years ago. And these are all disciplined, coached, risk adjusted returns, not wild gamblers.
You're right to exercise cynicism because they are too many scam 'trainers' out there who have never traded and know nothing. But there ARE also a handful of credible, successful ones, including me and a few others that I know.
Fact.
Why do they do it ? Apart from the kick of taking a newbie with no career and seeing them develop into successful, happy human beings, if I am on 50/50 with 10 traders making £10-100k a month, and once I've trained them and continue to coach and help them grow they do all the work, that's a LOT of money.
Go figure.

What firm you at?