Short but sweet Ninja + Zen

[lockstock]

Well that lasted all of one day, live trading.


I entered a short trade of one contract, on the YM06 and was going to close for a small profit of $25.


I then pressed CLOSE to exit the trade with a profit, this is just before the market took off in a Northerly direction.

The software said - " Position closed" but the PnL was still moving, and I was still in profit. I pressed the close button again, nothing, I repeated the CLOSE operation a further 5 times, ( 7 in total). I then shut the software down, I could see the market was moving against me. ( In hindsight, maybe I should have pressed the REVERSE BUTTON) Anyway, by the time I reopened the software, I was $400 down and rising, and two contracts and not one.

Now, I didn't know whether to try and close the position ( would they believe me if I did?) - ) ( Would they want to see the position running) or ( was it my responsibility to close the trade if the software has malfunctioned?)

Anyway, I got in touch with Ninja first, they eventually replied and told me to get in touch with my broker. I did this, at my only point of contact with Mirus, ( Zen) and he sent me an email and asked me if I would like to liquidate the position.

I replied by asking who was responsible for it and would I be reimbursed, I never got a straight answer and all the while the position was moving against me.

Emails went back and forth, but nothing was resolved, I then emailed the trading desk in the US, they eventually rang me, but by then most of the damage was already done.

They were still asking me the same question:- " Do you want to liquidate your position?" My reply was, " Who is responsible"

Anyway, the postion was liquidated by mistake when we were testing if the software was working in a live application when the index was up at 12 882.

I have spoke to the head guy at Mirus and he is having non of it, smoke and mirrors answers a question with a question, and it was all my fault, even after studying the log, and seeing that i tried to close the position 7 times.



In the Ninja thread one of their representatives made some sort of comment regarding the log files and some humerous remark as if it the whole episode was hilarious, I told him it wasn't ammusing when the software malfunctiosn and a customer loses a whole load of money.

They, without any explanation have terminated my subscription to Ninja and refunded my money.


What a day. - NOT

 

[grantx]

LS,

Well rid. Shower of cnts.

Grant.

 

[Mathemagician]

I know it's frustrating when things go wrong, but actually it does sound like it was your fault in this case. As a trader, the responsibility is yours to know your position and open orders at all times and know the proper procedure and points of contact when something goes wrong so that risk can be mitigated. A little advance planning goes a long way.

At the point when you'd clicked the button to close the position and heard "order filled" but the P/L kept moving, you could not possibly know your real market position (did the order go through and was the position reported incorrectly or did the order not go through and was the position correct?). The moment you are unsure of your position (or whenever anything unexpected happens, for that matter) it is your responsibility to contact the order desk DIRECTLY via telephone if possible (not email), expeditiously describe the situation, and express your desire to flatten any position that might be open.

If your broker asks you if you want to flatten and you don't respond with a clear instruction, how can you expect them to act!?!? If they do close the position without your direct instruction and it would have moved in your favor, you will sue them and win. If they don't close the position and it goes against you, well, you never directly instructed them to close it so they are not liable. Nor should they be.

In order to avoid this situation in the future, you should WRITE DOWN the following and keep it taped to the side of your monitor...

1. Broker's name, phone number, and email address.
2. 24 hour order desk phone number, names if you have them, and email address if any.
3. Backup broker's name, phone number, and email address.
4. Backup broker's 24 hour order desk phone number, names if you have them, and email address if any.
5. Phone numbers and contact information for the clearing firm at which your account is held. Your broker will supply this information to you for emergency purposes if you ask for it in advance.
6. Any other possible points of contact with your broker -- including cell numbers, IM, etc.

You should also define as many possible sets of circumstances as you can dream up which, should they occur, you will work your way down the list of contacts with the goal of determining your actual position and aligning it with your intended position as efficiently as possible. If you want to bitch and whine and try to get compensated somehow that's fine and sometimes it's appropriate, but the time to do it is AFTER the situation is resolved. Even when the broker is at fault it is your responsibility to act in such a way as to minimize risk! In general, there are three main types of situations that should cause you to spring into action:

1. You can't submit orders for any reason.
2. You are unsure your actual position.
3. You are unsure of the status of any orders that may or may not be live.

Depending on your situation, you may be able to think of others. Again, the key is to prepare, plan, and rehearse behaving in such a way as to minimize the liability of all involved.

jj

 

[nine]

It's still a screwup I wouldn't want to enjoy mm.

I use Sierra Chart with Interactive Brokers (TWS) and I watch both. The nice thing is that if SC didn't succeed in its order I can then move to close it on TWS instead (note: SC is very good and I don't mean to imply that it fails, just that I have a backup strategy at the tech level ).

Of course, should that fail I have IB's hong kong number programmed into my cellphone, in skype, and in the back of my trading diary. I also have my Account number and disguised password in each of those locations. IB has yet to disappoint me (touch wood).

 

[Mathemagician]

nine, sounds like you've got your bases covered!

Like losing trades, screwups happen. It's unavoidable and it definitely sucks when they do happen. As someone who has had a 70 lot emini position on, heard "order filled", and still had a 70 lot on, believe me I know it's no fun to not know where you stand. The only way to deal with it is to minimize the damage, and that happens through prudent preparation (as you've obviously done)!

jj

 

[lockstock]

Good post Mathemetician,

It is a learnig curve for all of us and hindsight is a wonderful thing, and in future I would of course employ most of your suggestions without hesitation.


Let this be a lesson for everyone!!


Having taken on board your post, I still think that when I told them that I had a software malfunction that my position would have been flattend automatically, and yes I agree with the other posters that it is a stitch up of the highest magnitude.

Also the never addressed who would be culpable for the trade: If they had said:- Sir, close the position and if it shows that it is a software malfuncion then we will quash the trade.

Lessons for the future.


I wouldn't use a separate feed and software provider, there has to be one company answering to all the faults or they just pass the buck, or simply wash their hands of you.

I wouldn't have a broker that is in another country, access is the key, and if you have to ring America, there is going to be an inevitable delay and cost.


So it looks like I am back to the bucket shops in the future as there would be no way I could trust Ninja software again.

Unless someone else has some suggestions.

 

[lockstock]

Here's part of my trading log from yesterday, the ciritical part, can anyone help me along with this? As far as I was concerned, I was one contract short when I went to close out, but they are saying it was two. I certainly never pressed the sell button again, and as I stated above, the software said I was flat.( Verbally)

The last " Super Dom Close" was at 16:22.04, which I assume means I would have been flat. From that point until the next buy or sell. Assuming that I was, or my suspicions would have been realised earlier. I can then only see one order after that the 1210985 trade.

24/04/2008 16:07:03|0|32|Trigger price must be > last price or last day price Affected Order: Buy 1 StopLimit @ 12730 x 12732

24/04/2008 16:17:08|1|32|Submitting order without strategy
24/04/2008 16:17:09|1|32|Order='f59c81ec3c7f4471bfe990f824d7de6a/73675003!RCG!Mirus' Name='' New State=PendingSubmit Instrument='YM 06-08' Action=Sell Limit price=12752 Stop price=0 Quantity=1 Type=Limit Filled=0 Fill price=0 Error=NoError Native error=''

24/04/2008 16:17:09|1|32|Order='1210766/73675003!RCG!Mirus' Name='' New
State=Accepted Instrument='YM 06-08' Action=Sell Limit price=12752 Stop price=0 Quantity=1 Type=Limit Filled=0 Fill price=0 Error=NoError Native error=''

24/04/2008 16:17:09|1|32|Order='1210766/73675003!RCG!Mirus' Name='' New State=Working Instrument='YM 06-08' Action=Sell Limit price=12752 Stop price=0 Quantity=1 Type=Limit Filled=0 Fill price=0 Error=NoError Native error=''

24/04/2008 16:17:24|1|32|Order='1210766/73675003!RCG!Mirus' Name='' New State=Filled Instrument='YM 06-08' Action=Sell Limit price=12752 Stop price=0 Quantity=1 Type=Limit Filled=1 Fill price=12752 Error=NoError Native error=''

24/04/2008 16:17:24|1|16|Execution='15100120080424101724TN0042626' Instrument='YM 06-08' Account='73675003!RCG!Mirus' Exchange=Globex Price=12752 Quantity=1 Market position=Short Operation=Insert Order='1210766' Time='24/04/2008 16:17:24'

24/04/2008 16:17:24|1|64|Instrument='YM 06-08' Account='73675003!RCG!Mirus' Avg price=12752 Quantity=1 Market position=Short Operation=Insert Currency=UsDollar

24/04/2008 16:21:51|1|4|SuperDOM close position

24/04/2008 16:21:51|1|32|Order='1210323/73675003!RCG!Mirus' Name='' New State=PendingCancel Instrument='YM 06-08' Action=Buy Limit price=12730 Stop price=0 Quantity=1 Type=Limit Filled=0 Fill price=0 Error=NoError Native error=''

24/04/2008 16:21:51|1|32|Order='13a55355c1e4496587b0544667afb031/73675003!RCG!Mirus' Name='Close' New State=PendingSubmit Instrument='YM 06-08' Action=Buy Limit price=0 Stop price=0 Quantity=1 Type=Market Filled=0 Fill price=0 Error=NoError Native error=''

24/04/2008 16:21:52|1|32|Order='1210323/73675003!RCG!Mirus' Name='' New State=Cancelled Instrument='YM 06-08' Action=Buy Limit price=12730 Stop price=0 Quantity=1 Type=Limit Filled=0 Fill price=0 Error=NoError Native error=''

24/04/2008 16:22:04|1|4|SuperDOM close position

24/04/2008 16:22:08|1|32|Submitting order without strategy

24/04/2008 16:22:08|1|32|Order='49604035fe5b4c3987c296e2adc449ef/73675003!RCG!Mirus' Name='' New State=PendingSubmit Instrument='YM 06-08' Action=Sell Limit price=0 Stop price=0 Quantity=1 Type=Market Filled=0 Fill price=0 Error=NoError Native error=''

24/04/2008 16:22:08|1|32|Order='1210985/73675003!RCG!Mirus' Name='' New State=Accepted Instrument='YM 06-08' Action=Sell Limit price=0 Stop price=0 Quantity=1 Type=Market Filled=0 Fill price=0 Error=NoError Native error=''

24/04/2008 16:22:09|1|32|Order='1210985/73675003!RCG!Mirus' Name='' New State=Working Instrument='YM 06-08' Action=Sell Limit price=0 Stop price=0 Quantity=1 Type=Market Filled=0 Fill price=0 Error=NoError Native error=''

24/04/2008 16:22:09|1|32|Order='1210985/73675003!RCG!Mirus' Name='' New State=Filled Instrument='YM 06-08' Action=Sell Limit price=0 Stop price=0 Quantity=1 Type=Market Filled=1 Fill price=12743 Error=NoError Native error=''

24/04/2008 16:22:09|1|16|Execution='28200220080424102208TN0043548' Instrument='YM 06-08' Account='73675003!RCG!Mirus' Exchange=Globex Price=12743 Quantity=1 Market position=Short Operation=Insert Order='1210985' Time='24/04/2008 16:22:09'

24/04/2008 16:22:09|1|64|Instrument='YM 06-08' Account='73675003!RCG!Mirus' Avg price=12747.5 Quantity=2 Market position=Short Operation=Update Currency=UsDollar

24/04/2008 16:22:25|1|4|SuperDOM close position
24/04/2008 16:22:26|1|4|SuperDOM close position
24/04/2008 16:22:33|1|4|SuperDOM close position
24/04/2008 16:22:36|1|4|SuperDOM close position
24/04/2008 16:22:36|1|4|SuperDOM close position
24/04/2008 16:23:07|1|4|SuperDOM close position
24/04/2008 16:23:44|1|4|SuperDOM close position

 

[black bear]

Thanks for info

Broker should get you out in 2 minutes max

e-mail

phone should be answered by a dealer in max 5 rings and be in your account as you give him your account number, I dont think he even needs that to close you out if you give him your order and he knows you your voice

If not they are under staffed and its you who will pay in the long run

disclaimer on software is to be expected given what it does or can do

Thanks for posting info, always wondered about the one I did not go with because I could not make the demo work and rep from firm I contacted to sort it out was very poooooooooooooooor !! so I passed

All the best :clover:

 

[Mathemagician]

Having taken on board your post, I still think that when I told them that I had a software malfunction that my position would have been flattend automatically, and yes I agree with the other posters that it is a stitch up of the highest magnitude.

Also the never addressed who would be culpable for the trade: If they had said:- Sir, close the position and if it shows that it is a software malfuncion then we will quash the trade.

Lessons for the future.

When you think about it, your broker didn't write the software and the software company didn't execute your trades. Microsoft is not responsible for errata in newspapers and magazines, after all.

What you've got to try to keep in mind is that, unlike a SB or FX outfit, a futures broker isn't taking the other side of your trade so it isn't simply a matter of pretending it never happened. Your order is passed along to an exchange and your position is very real, with real p/l and real risk, and with real money being won from or lost to some unknown third party. Futures brokers neither profit from your losses nor suffer from your gains. No broker anywhere guarantees connectivity by any means and this is a risk we as traders accept.

Think of your trading software (e.g. ninja) as simply a fast and efficient way of transmitting instructions to your broker. When the trading software has a glitch and an order isn't transmitted it's just like if you ordinarily called in your orders and the phone went dead. While it isn't your fault, it certainly isn't the broker's responsibility to cover any losses either. If it were, I know I would be disconnecting my computer every time I placed an order and getting my broker-sponsored risk-free trade! It's just another risk we accept and ultimately it's a cost of doing business...

jj

 

[nine]

Think of it like moving out of kindergarten and out into the big wide world.

In one, Mummy will look after everything. But there is a cost - you can't go out at night, Mummy rules, you only get pocket money, you have to go to church on sunday etc etc.

In the other you don't have the costs of Mummy or her overbearing control of your life. But you have to take responsibility and its a big step. But it is one we can all take, with a few scraped knees along the way.

I know which one I prefer.

 

[lockstock]

I understand your point of view Mathemagician, but it is not as if I didn't contact the brokers, and instead I decided to ring them the day after!

Imho, once they had been notified that I was in a trade that was out of my control, they should have pulled the plug: You wouldn't drive down the road when the brakes had failed, now would you?

I guess it constitutes to what is an order and what is a question and where I stand, if a new customer with a smallish account rings up and says he has closed the position and it appears to be still open it should have been closed automatically from there. Non of this, wasting time: "Well what do you want to do with it , sir?"

The other arguement is ( From one of the principals at Mirus), that if the trade had been closed sooner they would have reimbursed me. So, what do we call -sooner? If that is the case, reimburse me for the time that you think it is reasonable and how much moved in that alltoted time.

If a vendor of a software and a broker come together to provide a means of placing an order in the market, then if it can be proven that the software was at fault, then should be culpable.

 

[Mr. Charts]

Your perception of fairness is irrelevant, whether justified, understandable or not.
You are playing their game and their rules - and they have your money, so if an order has not been filled, ring immediately and tell them to close the position immediately. That's it.

My own experience with IB, fwiw is this. Twice in 8 years of full time trading for a living my computer has crashed. I have a back up system, but on both occasions I was in a trade and phoned them immediately to close the position. The first time I had forgotten my secret phrase, never having used it before, and after a few questions they closed the position.
Lessons - as others have said, phone numbers to hand, account number, secret phrase, do it immediately. You have in no way discharged your own responsibility by sending an email I'm afraid.
Life sucks sometimes and s**t happens. Like everything else in life we have to learn from the lessons and move on.
Don't fight a problem, solve it.
Richard

 

[lockstock]

Hey, what's with all the- " I told you so" posts?

I have already said it is a lesson to be learnt and a lesson for others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That doesn't mean that because things are tilted in someone elses favour that you cannot

A) Comment about it

B) Attempt to change it.


If we all accepted everything in life that was thrown our way, we'd all become door mats.

 

[nine]

lockstock,

Getting serious again just for a sec. The problem is that you appear to have learned the wrong lesson (my opinion and I suspect others):

"Lessons for the future.

I wouldn't use a separate feed and software provider, there has to be one company answering to all the faults or they just pass the buck, or simply wash their hands of you.

I wouldn't have a broker that is in another country, access is the key, and if you have to ring America, there is going to be an inevitable delay and cost.

So it looks like I am back to the bucket shops in the future as there would be no way I could trust Ninja software again."


The correct lesson is how to build a plan for those potential issues following all the advice above (and allowing for stuff that was missed as well). There are many advantages to "real brokerages" just as there are potential issues such as the one you experienced. Its just something to master but once you have it you won't look back.

So, I don't think its so much "I told you so" as "Sorry for the loss; but the correct lesson is xxx."

 

[lockstock]

Look first of all- thanks for the feed back,

You all seem to be reading from the same hymn sheet, now I accept, I didn't go in fully prepared for any eventuallity and Mathemagicains post is a great post and one we all should adhere to, I also some of our greatest adverstities in life are the best tool to equip us for any future trials and tribulations.

What I don't accept is, that you ignore what has gone on and forget about it, this is a platform to air such grievances and I for one, if it has happened to someone else, would be thankful they had brought it to light and aired it in public.

What I find strange, is that no one has bothered to have a look at the log and say" Yes, you were on in only one contract" or " no you weren't in one contract "etc etc. But are quite happy reiterating the point in Mathemagicians'post -ad nauseum


As for me.

A) I have not learnt the wrong lesson!

B) The lesson I have learnt is NOT-soley about ringing the dealing desk as opposed to emailing them or having numerous numbers to hand etc and getting out of the trade asap

c) There is another angle to this and that is - To think that it is pertinent and sensible to ask what happened on the software side of things, and regardless of what you say, we have a law in this country that says, an item should be fit for purpose, and this is clearly not the case with Ninja Trader, for the last 5 years they have been using their users as beta rats to help them improve it, usually to the users' detriment.

I think something untoward has happened out of my control, I am almost convinced that someone somewhere else has tampered with the Ninja Trader control , I don't know if that is possible, but I cannot see one part of the system freezing on it's own( namely the- CANCEL- button) with out outside interference.

I am at a loss to where the 2nd short trade came from, when the system says closed at

24/04/2008 16:22:04|1|4|SuperDOM close position

and the only trade after that, is the short trade of 1210895.


I also think that it is prudent to use software that you trust implicitly, yes, we can have power cuts , the computer can crash ( less so these days) and it is good to have as many back ups as possible to contact the dealing desk. In this instance, no one from Ninja has given me any answers, they have simply removed my log post from their web forum and banned me. Now would you want to deal with someone as heavy handed as or as blatantly dismissive as that?

Let it be a warning to others.

I also think it makes good sense to have the software and the brokers tied in to one and the same or they just appear to pass the book. I am not sure if there are any out there that do this, but it would remove a big scape goat, as I said before, it has to be fit for purpose, never mind all these get out clauses.

By the way, I touch type and it is no skin off my nose typing this out.

 

[fifty2aces]

Anyway, I got in touch with Ninja first, they eventually replied and told me to get in touch with my broker. I did this, at my only point of contact with Mirus, ( Zen) and he sent me an email and asked me if I would like to liquidate the position.

I replied by asking who was responsible for it and would I be reimbursed, I never got a straight answer and all the while the position was moving against me.

Emails went back and forth, but nothing was resolved, I then emailed the trading desk in the US, they eventually rang me, but by then most of the damage was already done.

They were still asking me the same question:- " Do you want to liquidate your position?" My reply was, " Who is responsible"

So they asked you twice whether you wanted to liquidate, and you didn't explicitly say yes? They don't have a responsibility to guess what you want - you need to tell them EXACTLY what you want them to do.

As people have already said, since they execute your orders on the direct market, they don't profit when you lose, they aren't at fault when something goes wrong at your end, and they aren't likely to jump at the opportunity to "reimburse" you out of their own money.

Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but it's a tough world, and you can't expect other people to look after you - that's your job.


Edit: Just read your new post - I'll have a look at the log and see if I can spot anything strange.

 

[fifty2aces]

Could you post screenshots of the Orders and Executions pages in the control centre?

 

[grantx]

Richard,

Hot diggidy. Shoot my mouth.

Grant.

 

[lockstock]

Mate: Ithought by giving you a little assistance by telling you the time stamp that was more critical
you would have been able to take in 5 lines of log.


from 16:22:09 to the end of the log, there are 5 entries, with the last entries the attempt to close the positon.

If you don't understand it or it is too complex, then say that, don't say there is loads of stuff, when I deliberately honed in on the most important period and the time span that was an issue.

I could of course post the whole log, then you would have every reason to say that there was a lot of "stuff" posted.

 

[lockstock]

Okay, no problem.

as I said before, thanks for all the input and if this thread helps others then it has been worthwhle.


and likewise,


HAGW.