Looking for a MENTOR

[WingedLion]

Hi Guys,
I'm a pretty novice trader and I have been trading since 2012.
I started my journey to trading with a discretionary approach switching from one indicator to another abviously with no great results.
After that I started to study from different sources systematic trading, which I liked for the possibility to test the profitability of the different strategies BEFORE going live with real money.
Now I'm still learning how to properly backtest my own strategies but I'm also considering to make a step forward looking for a mentor to help me cut my learning curve and for having a solid point of reference.
A friend of mine shared with me this link:

reading the article I found that this guy won 4 times the world cup trading championships and that is going to start a new online course teaching the methods that he have utilized to win this competition.
This is the outline of the course:

there isn't yet the price but I think that he will say it on the presentation webinar.
Can you give please some advice about this trader? What do you think about this program?

Thank you for your help!!

 

[timsk]

Can you give please some advice about this trader? What do you think about this program?

Hi WingedLion,
Welcome to T2W.

When considering paying for coaching, there are three key considerations that the prospective trainee must consider very carefully . . .

1. Integrity and Ability (to trade) of the Coach / Trainer
This is something each prospective student has to decide for themselves by undertaking whatever due diligence they deem necessary. The key thing here is that there is clear evidence that the coach can ‘walk the walk’ and not just talk a good talk. I've not looked at the site you link to in detail but, in principle, if the claims made by the trainer can be verified - then this is a good start. Beware though, there is at least one infamous trainer who claimed to be a 'world champion' trader, but this did not withstand close scrutiny. In fact, it was completely bogus.

2. Ability to Teach
It looks as if the course / training being offered is new, so this will be tricky to evaluate. You need assurances that the course materials are clearly presented, well explained and very comprehensive. I would ask to see at least one chapter / module before signing up for the whole course. Additionally, I would ask for the contact details of someone who has received 1-2-1 coaching from him in the past and e-mail them. Better still, have a Skype chat or visit them in person. From what you say, you've probably got enough experience to gauge whether the person you talk to is genuine and sincere - something that's very difficult to do when reading short reviews on a website. If there's no one (who's had any training) that's willing to talk to you in person, think of that as a major red flag. If there's no one who's ever been trained by this chap then, in your shoes, I'd be unhappy to be the guinea pig without cast iron assurances that I'll get a full refund in the event that I'm not totally satisfied.

3. The Trainer Trainee Match
IMO, this completely trumps the first two considerations and is the vital element that most people either overlook or ignore completely. I’m not talking about personalities and you liking the trainer or visa versa. Rather, that your interest and approach to the markets is aligned with that of the trainer. For example, if you think technical analysis (TA) is a load of hogwash and the trainer utilises a classic TA approach, you're always going to doubt his methods or, at the very least, your own ability to adopt them and implement them. If he dismisses indicators as being useless - harmful even - to your trading and insists you remove your favourite moving average that you've had on every chart since you first started trading - how will you feel? If his method centres around various options strategies and you don't care for - and much less understand - all the Greek gobbledegook, straddles and volatility etc., then his course probably isn't for you. You get the idea, hopefully!

IMO, this last point is the main reason why so many people who pay for tuition aren't successful and end up blaming (often unfairly) the coach for their failure. From the outset, they focus on the rewards with the mind set that says: ‘I don’t care what or how I trade so long as it makes me money’. This is completely ar$e about face in my view. They don’t spend anything like enough time considering their market and the type of trader they are (or want to become). They should do this first and then seek out a coach / trainer who is the best fit for their style and trades in a manner that they aspire to. So, as far as possible, a successful trainer/trainee relationship is one where both parties are in sync’ and complement one another.

If you're thinking seriously about paying for any trading coaching then, before getting your credit card out, I recommend you take a close look at these two FAQs;
Can You Recommend a Mentor, Coach or Trading Course?
How Can I Distinguish Between Scams and Reputable Vendors?

Hope that helps - let us know what you decide and, if you take the course, how you get on.
Tim.

 

[dbphoenix]

When considering paying for coaching, there are three key considerations that the prospective trainee must consider very carefully . . .

1. Integrity and Ability (to trade) of the Coach / Trainer

A coach and a "trainer" are two different things. Before the supplicant begins investigating this and that, he needs to decide whether he wants help with developing his own trading plan or learning somebody else's. A trading coach, like any coach, need not be a world champion in order to aid the beginner. In fact, the world champion may be the worst possible choice if he insists that the beginner do it "his way" whether that way is best for the beginner or not.

If, on the other hand, the beginner wants to learn somebody else's method, he's in for a great deal of research, as you point out, but which he is unlikely to do given that if he had the time and energy and desire to go through all that, he'd most likely be developing his own plan to begin with.

What these quests amount to, in so many words, is "Who is willing to take my money?", which is the chief reason why I'm less than sympathetic to those who complain about being "scammed".

Db

 

[timsk]

Hi dbp,

A coach and a "trainer" are two different things. Before the supplicant begins investigating this and that, he needs to decide whether he wants help with developing his own trading plan or learning somebody else's. A trading coach, like any coach, need not be a world champion in order to aid the beginner. In fact, the world champion may be the worst possible choice if he insists that the beginner do it "his way" whether that way is best for the beginner or not.

Yes, this is a good point that I ought to have made. I was assuming - quite possibly wrongly - that it is coaching the methodology of the championship trader that is on offer. For the most part, this tends to be what's available and what most prospective students opt for.

If, on the other hand, the beginner wants to learn somebody else's method, he's in for a great deal of research, as you point out, but which he is unlikely to do given that if he had the time and energy and desire to go through all that, he'd most likely be developing his own plan to begin with.

I'm not so convinced by this argument. After all, most traders joining IBs and prop' firms are taught - and are expected to utilize - the house methodology. Not only that, they are expected to pick it up and run with it quite quickly, otherwise they'll get booted out and replaced by someone else who can.

What these quests amount to, in so many words, is "Who is willing to take my money?", which is the chief reason why I'm less than sympathetic to those who complain about being "scammed".

I suspect you're right in many cases - but not all. Certainly, the (implied) idea that paid for coaching /training is of limited value is not one that I'd subscribe to.
Tim.

 

[dbphoenix]

Hi dbp,

Yes, this is a good point that I ought to have made. I was assuming - quite possibly wrongly - that it is coaching the methodology of the championship trader that is on offer. For the most part, this tends to be what's available and what most prospective students opt for.

True, but, again, this is training, not coaching. To equate the two sends a great many beginners down the wrong path.

I'm not so convinced by this argument. After all, most traders joining IBs and prop' firms are taught - and are expected to utilize - the house methodology. Not only that, they are expected to pick it up and run with it quite quickly, otherwise they'll get booted out and replaced by someone else who can.

Also true. But this type of neophyte knows and understands quite well at the outset that he is looking to learn somebody else's "method", which is, again, a matter of training.

I suspect you're right in many cases - but not all. Certainly, the (implied) idea that paid for coaching /training is of limited value is not one that I'd subscribe to.
Tim.

Whether or not paying for coaching or paying for training is of limited value will depend on how good the coach is and whether or not the trainer has a consistently-profitable trading plan, but these are two separate considerations. Whoever is willing to pay a trainer has, for example, every right to examine his or her tax returns, or at least watch him or her trade. Every day. All day. For an extended period of time. The value of the coach lies in his ability to help the beginner determine exactly what it is he wants to accomplish and how he plans to go about getting it. How the coach himself trades is not pertinent. Van Tharp, for example, may be a great coach, but he was a bust as a trader. Others are great traders but can't coach for beans.

It is easy and convenient to assume that when people seek "coaching" they are actually looking for someone to tell them what to do: what instrument to trade, when to trade it, where to enter, where to place stops, etc. This is nearly always the case. But there are a few that have no interest in trading somebody else's way. These are the beginners who will benefit most from a coach but who will not benefit at all from a trainer.

Db

 

[WingedLion]

Thank you timsk for your swift and clear answer!!

About the first point I've just surfed the web and found that Andrea Unger truly won the Robbin's trading cup 4 times (the same won by Larry Williams), which is a one year long competition joined by traders coming from every part of the world. It's encouraging, because he proved to have a positive methodology and what I really want is the ability to think like a successful trader.

There will be a webinar the 4th of november when he present the course, I hope in that occasion to have the chance to gauge his ability as a teacher.
For sure I will take your advice of asking some contacts of person who already had some learning experience with him.

About the approach I think that we should be aligned, we both trade in a systematic way and about the info I've found on internet he don't utilize any indicator in creating his trading strategy but only the price, and that is exactly the direction that I'm following..

Thank you again for the suggestion!
I will keep you updated!

 

[adalc]

Sorry, I'm a newbie here, but I have a question:
dbphoenix, timsk: are you profitable with trading?

I'm sure Andrea won what he said, as you can see it here: http://www.worldcupchampionships.com/live-stats-3
I'm puzzled cos thought more people knew him, like Larry Williams.
I followed Andrea's course in person in 2013 and it changed my life as a trader: absolute value!
At first I was doubtful about results, but after I met I know he's the real deal.

 

[timsk]

Sorry, I'm a newbie here, but I have a question:
dbphoenix, timsk: are you already profitable with trading?
what type of trading do you do?

Hi adalc,
Welcome to T2W.

Regarding profitability, assume that I never have - and never will - make a cent from trading. As a member of staff, if I were to suggest otherwise, I'd be asked to provide statements, give 'live' calls and jump through any number of hoops - none of which I'm willing to do.

As for what I trade, these days it's primarily the Dax.
Tim.

 

[dbphoenix]

Sorry, I'm a newbie here, but I have a question:
dbphoenix, timsk: are you profitable with trading?

I'm sure Andrea won what he said, as you can see it here: http://www.worldcupchampionships.com/live-stats-3
I'm puzzled cos thought more people knew him, like Larry Williams.
I followed Andrea's course in person in 2013 and it changed my life as a trader: absolute value!
At first I was doubtful about results, but after I met I know he's the real deal.

And if the expense was worth it to you, great. However, one can learn to trade profitably for nothing.

Db