Is there really a God ?

[Pat494]

Whether God exists or not has been vexed question for millennia.
I had 2 Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door a short time ago looking for converts.
Both nice people and sincere in their beliefs but I wasn't ready to be converted from my sceptical
beliefs or lack of them.
I thought I would have a bit of fun with them so I said " could I ask them a question ?"
Oh yes they said suspecting a convert was teetering on the edge of darkness.
My question is I said
" if there is an almighty God why did he allow such dreadful things like World War 1 and 2 to go unchecked ?"
This had them completely stumped. I was expecting the answer of God allows humans to do what they want. But no they had forgotten that one.
Well I said
" was he asleep at the time or perhaps on strike or something ? "
Their fervour had visible shrunk. They muttered they had to be elsewhere and dashed off.

I return to my belief that God is a mental construct of man. Yes many people find comfort in the belief that he loves them and is therefore of some practical use.
What do think after having lived your years on this planet.

 

[cantagril]

Whether God exists or not has been vexed question for millennia.
I had 2 Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door a short time ago looking for converts.
Both nice people and sincere in their beliefs but I wasn't ready to be converted from my sceptical
beliefs or lack of them.
I thought I would have a bit of fun with them so I said " could I ask them a question ?"
Oh yes they said suspecting a convert was teetering on the edge of darkness.
My question is I said
" if there is an almighty God why did he allow such dreadful things like World War 1 and 2 to go unchecked ?"
This had them completely stumped. I was expecting the answer of God allows humans to do what they want. But no they had forgotten that one.
Well I said
" was he asleep at the time or perhaps on strike or something ? "
Their fervour had visible shrunk. They muttered they had to be elsewhere and dashed off.

I return to my belief that God is a mental construct of man. Yes many people find comfort in the belief that he loves them and is therefore of some practical use.
What do think after having lived your years on this planet.

Big G here:

You're quite wrong. I do indeed exist but have spent the last few millennia incarnated (think "Undercover Boss") as various creatures - the current one being as a fairly incompetent human. My favourite was as a rather short lived furry quadruped in the jungles of Amazonia (some of my finest work, I feel) which ended suddenly as one of my better designed fierce predators had me for lunch.

As to your question about wars and Jehovah's witnesses et al - thing is, I never really gave much of a toss for any of my creations and some of my least favourite include you lot. I admit to inflicting wars and plagues and stuff out of periodic fits of pique but they don't really seem to have improved the species at all. My latest wheeze is going to be either the plague to end all plagues or some space rock similar to the one I used to zap those big lizards a while back - I do like a good show. In the interim, organized religions are an entertaining way to pass the time. I had quite a lot of fun with the Christians in the past but they seem to have gone off the boil a bit, so I've been looking elsewhere - sorry about the Witnesses; just be grateful they weren't some of my more violent zealots.

Anyway, it's always good to chat, even though you're all totally buggered. I can usually be reached by prayer (rather than a trading forum) though to be fair, even though I suppose on some level I do hear them, I don't really care enough to do anything about them. I hope this clears things up a bit.

Now handing back control to Canta - or rather I'll just let him think he's in control

 

[Pat494]

Has Warren Buffet held forth on religion ?
Nelson Rockefeller always gave 10% of his earnings to his local church. Did he buy immortality ? I wonder.

 

[Pat494]

Has Warren Buffet held forth on religion ?
Nelson Rockefeller always gave 10% of his earnings to his local church. Did he buy immortality ? I wonder.

Well to answer my own question.

2. Though raised as a Presbyterian Christian, Buffett is known to have an agnostic attitude toward religion. Buffett's agnostic views suggestively mean that he basically doesn't profess a belief in a supernatural deity and sees no one as wrong when it comes to religion.

 

[trendie]

God (probably) does not exist.
God exists, but does not care, nor intervenes in human affairs.
God exists, does care (about humans), but cannot, or will not, intervene.
God exists, cares, intervenes sporadically, but not in a manner that is statistically significant.
God exists, but the correct messiah hasnt arrived on earth yet, all previous messiahs being wrong. (we're praying in the wrong way)
God(s) exist, but the true pagan / elemental force one(s) have been abandoned in favour of praying to false corporatised organised religions.

If you want to connect to God personally and directly, try a Persinger helmet!

 

[wackypete2]

There's only 2 ways to look at it:
1) God, heaven, hell, etc... does NOT exist; in which case when we die conscious life ceases to exist and there is nothing more.

2) God, heaven, hell, etc... DOES exist but if we don't believe in it all then we are doomed to eternal torment. I we DO believe in and worship God then we may spend eternity in heaven.

So, it's all or nothing. Personally, I choose #2. If I am wrong neither I nor anyone else will ever know anyway. Nothing lost.

Peter

 

[Pat494]

There's only 2 ways to look at it:
1) God, heaven, hell, etc... does NOT exist; in which case when we die conscious life ceases to exist and there is nothing more.

2) God, heaven, hell, etc... DOES exist but if we don't believe in it all then we are doomed to eternal torment. I we DO believe in and worship God then we may spend eternity in heaven.

So, it's all or nothing. Personally, I choose #2. If I am wrong neither I nor anyone else will ever know anyway. Nothing lost.

Peter

There is always the outside possibility of reincarnation.
Could be reborn as a …………………...
If there is any choice earned by good behaviour on earth then a bird might be a good one. So one could crap on one's past earthly rivals.

 

[Signalcalc]

Short answer is no I don't believe in God, long answer below 😂

As an agnostic sceptic I greatly err on the side of non-belief and have no religion, only faith in my own abilities and of my fellow man and nature. Until proof positive, then 'God' is just a theory, much as the big bang is a theory nothing has been proved...yet. As a layman, here's my laymans rationale:

Until relatively recently in recorded history most humans appeared to have a belief in the natural world, the pagans, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Mayans, Hindu's etc all made multiple gods to represent the natural world, in an attempt to explain why we are here and how and why we could be watered, fed, sheltered, to explain the seasons, the sun, moon, stars and planets, the weather, why stuff grows and why animals exist to be eaten and sustain us, they didn't seem to have a single diety to rule over us (although they may have had a lead god).

What appears to have happened in the last 2000-2500 years, is that human conflict over resources and to combat imperialistic forces from other forming civilisations as population growth had taken hold, has forced defending humans to seek a method for defending one's resources by co-opting other humans to think and believe in the same way, ie tribalism.

To achieve this, those clever defending (or possibly attacking) groups tell a story of a single God with associated commandments, have a gang that are in on the plot to spread the word, indoctrinate from birth, allow little tolerance for dissenting views, collect taxes, form armies of defence or attack, seize resource and land, convert the local population, rinse and repeat. As the concept of a single God took hold and people were persuaded to move away from their prior beliefs in the natural world then the natural world lost it's privileged position as the reason for life and living and adopted a political ideology that controlled thoughts and how we live using religion and a single god as the basis.

2000 years later the whole concept of religion is modernised and grown to form the moral principals of our Westernised world and our leadership through democratic means (with lots of exceptions). During the same period, we had a period of enlightenment where science and technology became a method of explaining the planet, humans and the universe, some of which also dates back to the Greek philosophers. Religion was separated from the state governance but retained a privileged position in the running of societies.

What worries me the most is that most of our leadership believes in a God in one form or another, surely we can invent a way of conducting ourselves on moral grounds as we do today and be able to disassociate ourselves from a single ethereal being that really only exists in the imagination of man and storytelling?

Surely we can just thank previous religions for providing the moral framework by which we now live, move away from those legacy beliefs and continue to develop so that we can start to live in harmony with each other without religion. Alas, for that to happen also relies on the co-operation of one's neighbour who may not have given up on their ambitions to convert everyone to their religious way of thinking.

Religion is the basis for much evil, death and destruction, we would be better off without it, if only we could convert people to a single moral way of thinking, that would be my way of course, no dissent would be tolerated

 

[cantagril]

Short answer is no I don't believe in God, long answer below 😂

As an agnostic sceptic I greatly err on the side of non-belief and have no religion, only faith in my own abilities and of my fellow man and nature. Until proof positive, then 'God' is just a theory, much as the big bang is a theory nothing has been proved...yet. As a layman, here's my laymans rationale:

Until relatively recently in recorded history most humans appeared to have a belief in the natural world, the pagans, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Mayans, Hindu's etc all made multiple gods to represent the natural world, in an attempt to explain why we are here and how and why we could be watered, fed, sheltered, to explain the seasons, the sun, moon, stars and planets, the weather, why stuff grows and why animals exist to be eaten and sustain us, they didn't seem to have a single diety to rule over us (although they may have had a lead god).

What appears to have happened in the last 2000-2500 years, is that human conflict over resources and to combat imperialistic forces from other forming civilisations as population growth had taken hold, has forced defending humans to seek a method for defending one's resources by co-opting other humans to think and believe in the same way, ie tribalism.

To achieve this, those clever defending (or possibly attacking) groups tell a story of a single God with associated commandments, have a gang that are in on the plot to spread the word, indoctrinate from birth, allow little tolerance for dissenting views, collect taxes, form armies of defence or attack, seize resource and land, convert the local population, rinse and repeat. As the concept of a single God took hold and people were persuaded to move away from their prior beliefs in the natural world then the natural world lost it's privileged position as the reason for life and living and adopted a political ideology that controlled thoughts and how we live using religion and a single god as the basis.

2000 years later the whole concept of religion is modernised and grown to form the moral principals of our Westernised world and our leadership through democratic means (with lots of exceptions). During the same period, we had a period of enlightenment where science and technology became a method of explaining the planet, humans and the universe, some of which also dates back to the Greek philosophers. Religion was separated from the state governance but retained a privileged position in the running of societies.

What worries me the most is that most of our leadership believes in a God in one form or another, surely we can invent a way of conducting ourselves on moral grounds as we do today and be able to disassociate ourselves from a single ethereal being that really only exists in the imagination of man and storytelling?

Surely we can just thank previous religions for providing the moral framework by which we now live, move away from those legacy beliefs and continue to develop so that we can start to live in harmony with each other without religion. Alas, for that to happen also relies on the co-operation of one's neighbour who may not have given up on their ambitions to convert everyone to their religious way of thinking.

Religion is the basis for much evil, death and destruction, we would be better off without it, if only we could convert people to a single moral way of thinking, that would be my way of course, no dissent would be tolerated

So, it's still a "No" then?

 

[Nowler]

That's easy.
Nope

I studied biblical studies for my first year of uni and would debate this with my lecturers. Nobody can provide any evidence to suggest there is.

 

[Hoggums]

I do not believe in a magic man who lives in the sky.

 

[postman]

Whether God exists or not has been vexed question for millennia.
...
I return to my belief that God is a mental construct of man. Yes many people find comfort in the belief that he loves them and is therefore of some practical use.
What do think after having lived your years on this planet.

I dont know if God exists but his son trades here on T2W and he's sh1t at it.

 

[Pedrofernandes]

I think there is no such thing as God, that the existence of so many religions are possibly misinterpretations of the ancient human of advanced technology or are only stories created to realize a world order and that society do not do any wrong for fear of a of course God.

 

[Pat494]

Perhaps being a trading forum, we should invent a GOD of wealth and money. His churches are Wall Street and other financial centres around the world. His clerics, the Heads of financial institutions.
At least they say things that are relevant to the product and production of the same. Will I be on my knees facing Wall St. ? Probably not.
What are the penalties for rejecting the money world ? Bankruptcy probably.
What are the benefits ? Who knows.
Suggest a name for this creation. Perhaps Trufett ? A cross between Trump and Buffett.

 

[Signalcalc]

American Gods, good book, good first series, trying hard to get into the second series but it's just not cutting it for me at the moment, need to give it more time.

 

[Exscudo]

ha-ha, this is a weird topic for a forum Everybody must decide this for themselves.

 

[postman]

ha-ha, this is a weird topic for a forum Everybody must decide this for themselves.

Sorry, God has already decided it for you.

 

[Exscudo]

Sorry, God has already decided it for you.

Perhaps. Still, what you believe in makes a huge difference in how you perceive the world. I think there is just no right and wrong here. I just finished reading "Of human bondage" and that book makes some very interesting points: what it says is basically in the eyes of the main character, the Christian religion is a collection of moral rules that define good and bad. However, religion can exist without these moral rules just as easily as one can live ones life measuring actions by the same moral rules without being religious.

One person may decide for themselves that the god is real and for them, it really is so. However, somebody may come in and say that there is no god, and for them, this is the truth that they live by. How are we to say who of them is right if they believe equally strongly? There is no compelling evidence in favor of either.

This is kind of a sketchy topic and I am sorry if I said something insensitive. I just think this is very complicated and highly subjective. And, I actually do believe in God though I am not very religious. I don't believe in the concept of heaven and hell as well as eternal punishment or reward.

 

[Signalcalc]

Perhaps. Still, what you believe in makes a huge difference in how you perceive the world. I think there is just no right and wrong here. I just finished reading "Of human bondage" and that book makes some very interesting points: what it says is basically in the eyes of the main character, the Christian religion is a collection of moral rules that define good and bad. However, religion can exist without these moral rules just as easily as one can live ones life measuring actions by the same moral rules without being religious.

One person may decide for themselves that the god is real and for them, it really is so. However, somebody may come in and say that there is no god, and for them, this is the truth that they live by. How are we to say who of them is right if they believe equally strongly? There is no compelling evidence in favor of either.

This is kind of a sketchy topic and I am sorry if I said something insensitive. I just think this is very complicated and highly subjective. And, I actually do believe in God though I am not very religious. I don't believe in the concept of heaven and hell as well as eternal punishment or reward.

The first para is spot on, we don't need religion to decide our morals and rule of law, in the UK church and state were separated many moons ago, morals without religion are a product of your family, upbringing, environment and education.

As for how strongly you believe in god(s), well I think that depends on your earliest upbringing and amount of indoctrination received from birth. If you were indoctrinated very strongly then if you ever have the chance to change your mind then it could prove difficult to achieve. If you didn't receive a strong early indoctrination it should be fairly easy to change one's mind in later life.

 

[Exscudo]

The first para is spot on, we don't need religion to decide our morals and rule of law, in the UK church and state were separated many moons ago, morals without religion are a product of your family, upbringing, environment and education.

As for how strongly you believe in god(s), well I think that depends on your earliest upbringing and amount of indoctrination received from birth. If you were indoctrinated very strongly then if you ever have the chance to change your mind then it could prove difficult to achieve. If you didn't receive a strong early indoctrination it should be fairly easy to change one's mind in later life.

I again think that it depends on the person very much. Getting back to the same book, Of human bondage - after losing his parents early, the main character was raised by a parson and was a religious child. However, in early adolthood, he greatly changed his views and became a total atheist.

For me, it was probably the exact opposite. I was more of an atheist in the beginning but changed my belives. Though, of course you are absolutely right by saying that how we are raised makes a huge influence on us. What we experience in later life can also transform the way we see the world.