Is getting a job in a prop firm really just based 98% on luck???!!

[spanish89]

I have read a huge amount of the topics on here and a few other places on the internet, and even though there are a few opposite views, most coming to the same conclusion-


Getting your a job in a prop firm is purely 99% based on luck!!! :|

Even if you absolutely love the stock market, you wakeup at 5am every morning just to watch the markets when they open, you monitor every little FX pair, you watch all the bllomberg channel all day while watching the markets, and you stay up till 2am in the morning just wathcing the markets all day and practising trading on demo accounts!!


When it comes down to applying to the prop firms,how much chance will you really have of getting in?!!


1. How many prop firms are there in the UK? = http://www.tradersnarrative.com/list-of-proprietary-trading-firms-735.html

That is a list of almost every prop firm there is out there (way more than i could ever find on google after hours of searching in any other way)

I didnt count them, but there are about 50firms on that list roughly.
That list is the main resource used by 1000s of new traders each year when they are looking for jobs.

SO
Each of the companies on that list probably gets on average atlast 5,000 CVs and covering letters sent to them every year form people looking for a job.

How many jobs does each firm actually have per year though??

50? 60 max maybe??


SO
If my numbers are accurate there will be 2,500jobs available per year, with 5,000 people applying for them. (That seems an extremely low number of applicants though).

But even if my numbers are near accurate there wll still be atleast 50% of people who will apply for each of these companies but get rejected 50x by each and everyone.




So what do they do for the rest of that year to prevent themself from ending up living on the streets as beggars, begging for food and water?? :-0

Just try and get a job in a differnet industry instead that they dont actually care about or want as their life career, but do it just to be able to survive for the year.


Next year comes what can they do???

They just re-send their CV and cover letter to those same 50 firms again and hope for the best.

As its a 50% chance the odds that they could be rejected 6years in a row are nothing unusual.
1/12 chance of spending their whole life never being able to actually do the job and career they want.

So this is the fate of atleast 1 person out of every 12 people who want to trade for a prop firm.....

 

[spanish89]

So now then we come to looking at what gives this 50% the edge whne they apply???

Lots of people on here and other places have said that to get a job in a prop firm YOU DO NOT NEED a uni degree or any higher qualifcations after A-levels.

:-0:|:|


Um ok lets look at this for a minute then...

These 50 firms each get 5000 CVs and cover letters in a giant pile on their desk, but they only have 50jobs available.

So out of those 5,000 bits of paper only 50 will get a job and not be put in the trash can.


Lets say 50% of the applicants had degrees, 50% had just A-levels,
but both would have 100% had written all about how they were incredibly enthusiastic in the markets how they spent everyday researching and practising on demo accounts, how they knew all the terminology of trading, and knew all about what each economic event meant and the effects that it would normally cause.



So when the recruiters+owner of these firms are sitting there in their luxury offices with this pile of 5000 CVs and cover letters on their desk all saying basically the same thing on each cover letter...

How can anyone even try to claim that its not going to make a difference if you have degree or just A-levels, and be the 1 deciding factor whether you are in the 1% who get 1 of those 50jobs, or the 99% who endup in the trash???

(when the qualification you write on your CV and cover letter will probably be the 1 and only thing that could be different to what the other 4999 would also have written) :|:|

 

[spanish89]

So if you havent got a degree how can it not be just purely be base don luck that you in 1 of these firms you will be in their 1???

 

[toxictrading]

spanish, you really do know about two thirds of f*ck all dont you !
when i got my job, the bosses have admitted they just rolled a dice, which was lucky for me
i was lucky they didnt take into account my 12 years of experience in the markets or i would never have got a job

 

[fifty2aces]

1) I doubt many people have ever argued that a degree makes no difference at all - it isn't necessary, but if two candidates are otherwise identical, the one with the degree will usually get the job.

2) "If my numbers are accurate" - I doubt they are, since you just made them up. And I'm pretty sure less than 50% of applicants get a job - I've heard 1% for some places.

3) "As its a 50% chance the odds that they could be rejected 6years in a row are nothing unusual.
1/12 chance of spending their whole life never being able to actually do the job and career they want.

So this is the fate of atleast 1 person out of every 12 people who want to trade for a prop firm....."

It's pretty strange to say that this is all chance - if you get rejected once, it's probably because you weren't an outstanding candidate, and applying again isn't going to substantially improve your chances unless you improve.

4) Life is hard - not everyone gets to do what they want. If you want to be a doctor, but aren't good enough (no matter how enthusiastic you are) - tough luck, you need to find something else. If you want to be a trader, but aren't good enough, same deal.

This doesn't mean you should just give up - with enough work, a lot of people will be able to improve their chances, even if they are seemingly hopeless right now.

5)In your other thread, you said "Im dont really like this idea of having to do the SII securities & derivavtives exam and then try to get a job in a prop firm trading whatever Secs n Dervivs are...,"

No offence, but I think if you go to an interview at a prop firm and don't know what securities and derivatives are, you have no chance, and can't really blame bad luck.

 

[Advent]

If my numbers are accurate there will be 2,500jobs available per year, with 5,000 people applying for them. (That seems an extremely low number of applicants though).

Unfortunately, your guesses are very far from accurate. There are way way way less jobs available than that


Getting your a job in a prop firm is purely 99% based on luck!!! :|

No, getting a job at a prop firm is about making the firm believe that you are someone they want to invest in.... but 99% of applicants don't.

.

 

[spanish89]

Thanks Aces for being helpful atleast.

Why is everyone so f***king aggressive and mouthy on here though??!!


All i was doing was asking a question fs!! LOL


I wasnt saying ''you all idiots for doing degrees, and i now declare that anyone can just get into a firm just because they apply....,

I was merely asking a question about how much influence luck has compared to qualifications it has!!

 

[spanish89]

.

Aloha mate, do you work in a firm??

And if so how 'exactly' did you manage to get the firm to believe that they should invest in you, and f**k the other 1000s of blokes???

 

[0007]

spanish, you really do know about two thirds of f*ck all dont you !
when i got my job, the bosses have admitted they just rolled a dice, which was lucky for me
i was lucky they didnt take into account my 12 years of experience in the markets or i would never have got a job

I had a similar experience (not in trading) where they always selected a few black sheep (i presumed to be one) to validate their selection processes. But i proved the bast**ds wrong !

 

[toxictrading]

i wasnt being aggressive spanish, its just that you are talking ****,
you were not asking a question you were making a statement !
getting in to a prop firm has zero to do with luck and 100% to do with "you" the applicant
i dont have degrees, i dont have A levels and i dont have O levels
what i was trying to say is that experience will count for a lot, a lot more than a degree in some cases
do you honestly think that luck has anything to do with getting into a prop trading role ?
prop houses get 1000's of applications from people wanting to get in
they want the best people they can get, and getting the best has nothing to do with luck
just like trading it is down to process not luck

 

[Advent]

Yes, I work in a firm.

Well, everyone is different with different strengths and weaknesses and impress in different ways. You can only be yourself and impress them with the knowledge, abilities and characteristics that you possess. Some can be learned and some are just a part of who you are which you may have in abundance or never have. The first thing I would reccomend you do though is to work as hard as you can to increase what you have to impress with.

How did I manage to get the firm to believe they should invest in me?

Well, firstly I knew my stuff before I applied. I didn't set out with the mission to join a firm, I became interested in trading, learned everything I could through reading books, inteternet forums etc and eventually decided that I would much rather risk someone else's money and have all the other advantages of being with a professional firm and so then started applying. You can easily teach yourself far more than they will teach you. There are no shortcuts/ holy grails/ magic formulas that they will give you so I'd reccomend you take the initiative and learn as much as you can as quickly as you can rather than wanting someone else to teach you.

My CV also showed them I have excellent academic qualifications and an independant, entrepeneurial character. I had to sit Mental arithmatic/ Logical reasoning tests etc and must've scored well in these.

..and then in my interviews I must've convinced them that I am the sort of person they would like in their company and would make a good a trader. In my opinion (I'm just a trader, not a recruiter so it is just my opinion) this is the most important part. They want to see certain personal traits in people -Are you prepared to be as dedicated/ hard working as you will need to be, can you work well under pressure and take risks, can you take the highs and lows and live without a steady regular income, are you right for trading psychologicaly etc etc. By reading this forum/ some trading psychology books you can know what they're looking for and you can try to accentuate these qualities in the application/interview process but if it isn't really you they will probably be able to tell. They will also likely want you to be a decent person who is going to listen to what they say and not **** off the people who are making them money.


Hope this helps and best of luck

 

[grantx]

I got my current position based on merit. Ask my Uncle George.

Grant Soros.

 

[spanish89]

Yes, I work in a firm.

Well, everyone is different with different strengths and weaknesses and impress in different ways. You can only be yourself and impress them with the knowledge, abilities and characteristics that you possess. Some can be learned and some are just a part of who you are which you may have in abundance or never have. The first thing I would reccomend you do though is to work as hard as you can to increase what you have to impress with.

How did I manage to get the firm to believe they should invest in me?

Well, firstly I knew my stuff before I applied. I didn't set out with the mission to join a firm, I became interested in trading, learned everything I could through reading books, inteternet forums etc and eventually decided that I would much rather risk someone else's money and have all the other advantages of being with a professional firm and so then started applying. You can easily teach yourself far more than they will teach you. There are no shortcuts/ holy grails/ magic formulas that they will give you so I'd reccomend you take the initiative and learn as much as you can as quickly as you can rather than wanting someone else to teach you.

My CV also showed them I have excellent academic qualifications and an independant, entrepeneurial character. I had to sit Mental arithmatic/ Logical reasoning tests etc and must've scored well in these.

..and then in my interviews I must've convinced them that I am the sort of person they would like in their company and would make a good a trader. In my opinion (I'm just a trader, not a recruiter so it is just my opinion) this is the most important part. They want to see certain personal traits in people -Are you prepared to be as dedicated/ hard working as you will need to be, can you work well under pressure and take risks, can you take the highs and lows and live without a steady regular income, are you right for trading psychologicaly etc etc. By reading this forum/ some trading psychology books you can know what they're looking for and you can try to accentuate these qualities in the application/interview process but if it isn't really you they will probably be able to tell. They will also likely want you to be a decent person who is going to listen to what they say and not **** off the people who are making them money.


Hope this helps and best of luck

ALoha um i guess i already have done quite alot of the same you did then.

I only even foundout that the job 'trader' even existed 3months ago!!

Before that i had spent the last 8years planning on joining the police force.



I only have 3 A-levels, and they are not market related...

However over the last 3months i have spent everyday practising on demo trading accounts, ive learnt all about S&R levels.. ect, im now reading up all i can about all the fundamentals of what makes each market move and the imact each news release would have and so to know how to use them to my advantage when trading.

And have also run my own online retail company for over 1year now making over £250 profit per week, run an international shiping corporation for over 1year, all while still being at college fulltime as im only 18 now.

 

[Advent]

Nice one. It's sounds like your getting yourself off to a good start... but remember you're up against a lot of other good applicants and even if you get the job most of the guys you start with won't make money so you really need to push yourself to go that extra yard if you're going to get in the door and be successful.

I'd reccomend you read the following to begin with.

Technical Analysis of the Financial Markets - John Murphy
The Candlestick Course - Steve Nison
Enhancing Trader Performance - Brett N. Steenbarger
Trading in The Zone - Mark Douglas
The Trading Athlete - Doug Hirschorne
the Market Wizards books - Jack D. Schwager
Remeniscences of a Stock Operator - Edwin Leferve
The Day Trader's Bible - Richard D. Wyckoff (You can download this for free)
and, although not really a trading book, Psycho Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz is worth reading too.

Also read EVERYTHING in the knowledge lab on this site...

The fact you only have 3 A-Levels doesn't necessarily mean you can't get a job trading. Good qualifications do impress and say a lot about you but they're not everything. Unfortunately though a lot of the other applicants will have them and so you're going to have to be extra impressive in other ways if you're going to get the job ahead of them.


They' ll like fact that you've run your own online retail company for over 1year making over £250 per week. Something like that gives you an edge over the hundreds of people from the same mould who have always done everything that's expected of them but never really used their inititive, taken a risk, and gone further..... but be carefull what you say about the shipping corporation. I know nothing about it or you but if I saw that on an 18 year olds application (who was happy to make £250 a week from another business) I would laugh and think it's bull****.. and also wonder what else on your application you were embellishing.

Best of luck, but don't pin all your hopes on this. The chances are still against you getting in and you don't need to be in a firm to make money (Study Trader Dante's thread on here - it's full choc full of good advice). Though I will say that you shouldn't really need to make any effort to get into a firm - the effort should be put into learning trading and then if you're the right person they will want you when you apply.

 

[prop]

spanish,so how many prop houses have you applied to and what levels of succes are you having
its nothing to do with luck, i am free of a degree, but i definately dont put anything in trading down to luck !

be interested to know how you are getting on

 

[123]

some prop traders get into a sales and trading job first before getting their coverted prop trading job. then the next question is how to get into sales and trading?

i show my ex-boss my personal winning trades, convinced them that I can trade. this is how I gain my key into the trading playground. once u gain entry into the trading industry, it will be much easier to move around. today I'm working in a hedge fund as an option trader.

i have a degree, is it important? it does not guarantee you anything. what the banks and hedge funds want is to convince them that u can trade profitability.

 

[Avana]

.

why can't firms give very samll capital and try out the skills of the filtered canidadates based on the past performance. Even if the experienced traders don't perform,they get fired.

 

[trader_dante]

why can't firms give very samll capital and try out the skills of the filtered canidadates based on the past performance. Even if the experienced traders don't perform,they get fired.

Some do.

 

[shortorlong]

OT .. but I don't understand why , if you can trade successfully with your own account you would want to join a firm. You like being bossed around? You enjoy being assessed and monitored? You want to be subordinate? That's the opposite of what I'm trading for.

 

[Aspire]

OT .. but I don't understand why , if you can trade successfully with your own account you would want to join a firm. You like being bossed around? You enjoy being assessed and monitored? You want to be subordinate? That's the opposite of what I'm trading for.

But if you're good at making money you don't get bossed around, you can come and go as you please, wear what clothes you want and have just as much freedom as if you were trading your own money from home.

Asside from the advantages of being on a fully kitted out trading floor with other traders around you most people would much prefer to trade with large suplies of someone elses money than limited supplies of their own hard earned.


And also being monitored is a good thing. At a good firm you won't have anyone looking over your shoulder telling you what to do but if things look like they're starting to go pear shaped someone will come over for for a friendly chat, maybe see if you want to take a break, and basically stop you from losing it and doing any real damage.