Internships

[pietro]

Morning All,

Its coming to that time in my life where i have started looking & applying for internships in the industry :cheesy: I've applied to Bear, polishing my application to UBS and sizing up my chances at Goldman. They told me to network, and find people who work for IBs but i dont really want to "use" people on the board. However if anybody on here has been on a placement with any of the IBs then any help would be greatly Appreciated. I'm particularly interested in the tests that they subject you to. Any information or advice would go down well. p.s im not a Muppet i have been researching these companies and their recent business deals!

Kind Regards

Pietro

 

[crazybrab]

Pietro,

I'm assuming you want to go into trading given that you are posting here. I was in the same position as you last year - Applying for internships at many IB's, hoping this would be the 'holy grail to trading.'
I'll first tell you about my experiences and then some general tips I can offer:

1. Applied to UBS, (equities trading) was my first interview (26Jan04). Morning began with a numerical test. Use of calculator allowed. I think the test had lasted some 40 mins and had about 50-60 questions. Standard data-based questions - just make sure you practice.
2 Followed by general 30 min interview with one of the equities traders. No trick questions here - just why I am interested, career aspirations etc. Other applicants were asked about general economic climate/trading. I avoided this by drawing attention to the fact that I have trader since 13 and Obtained STA Diploma and Level 3 Certificate in Investment Management. A far more interesting conversation for both of us and certainly a change from listening to everyone discuss the FT!
3. Next up, 30 min numerical test (oral). Questions initially included mental arithmetic inc. percentages, multiplication and division of decimals. (no paper allowed, guy wants fast answers to 1-2 dec. points)

2 questions I remember:
1. Complex situations involving hour/minute hand - need to calculate angle between them
2. The question I died on: “Imagine you are travelling round a circuit at 30kmph for first lap. How fast would second lap have to be to average 60kmph on both laps?" - Yes, here they gave me a trick question.
Next up, presentation. I can’t remember that well what I presented on, but something to do with valuing a company. You are given a scenario and have 30mins to prepare followed by 15min presentation and 15 mins Q&A session.
Day finished with a group exercise having to discuss a problem a come up with a solution. You are monitored by one of the assessors on your input. There is always going to be a domineering idiot in the group - rest assured they are equally likely to get rejected to those who say nothing.

End result: Rejection. A friend received an internship, but out of 30 interns, only 3 got offers at the end, implying a conversion ratio of only 10%!

I recommend that you avoid UBS - they were by far the most unfriendly of the banks I interviewed at.

I also interviewed at CSFB, Dresdner and Deutsche Bank. CSFB by far the most friendly and down to earth. They do not require orally-based numerical tests or group exercises. I had abut 10 interviews at CSFB - conversations were very spontaneous, not Q/A format. Would highly recommend applying to CSFB.

I ultimately ended up in working at Deutsche Bank's Algorithmic Trading Division. - Thinking this was the 'back door' into trading I was proved very wrong. The arrogance of the people at DB was immense, the work I did was monumentally boring and pointless - crunch numbers in Excel all day only to have them binned by some PHD Mathematician in DB's Moscow Office. Two weeks into my three month internship I finished for good.
I then spent most of my summer researching the markets, educating myself further and have to some extent developed a viable trading strategy. When I graduate, I am either planning to take up trading dull time from home or go to a trading arcade.

I hope my experiences have given you some insight into the limited usefulness of internships with respect to trading (in my opinion)

If you want to discuss anything further, please email me at [email protected]

 

[pietro]

Hi

Thanks for the Heads up crazybrab, ive emailed you over some Qs, CSFB sounds like a good firm from what ive heard.

Pietro

 

[A Dashing Blade]

I recommend that you avoid UBS - they were by far the most unfriendly of the banks I interviewed at.
. . .
Would highly recommend applying to CSFB.
. . .
The arrogance of the people at DB was immense, the work I did was monumentally boring and pointless - crunch numbers in Excel all day only to have them binned by some PHD Mathematician in DB's Moscow Office. Two weeks into my three month internship I finished for good.

hmmmm . . .

Well recognised that, at UBS, HR has too much influence in a great deal of things. What the hell they're doing putting potential interns on a one-day interview/test is absolutely beyond me.

CSFB . . . well, they're a well known brand but that's about the most positive thing I would say about them.

DB . . . can't comment, never worked there.

Guys, please understand, interns are foisted on a trading desk, it's pretty rare for a desk to "choose" it's intern. At the end of the day, they know nothing, are gonna be gone in three months and so, to all intents and purposes are endured more than anything else.

Unfortunately, as a route into a graduate training scheme with the larger IB's, having done an internship is pretty much required from what I can gather.

So, if you do get on one, swallow your pride, keep your mouth shut and your eyes and ears open and yes, you will be required to do the coffee run.

 

[Steaming_schatz]

Pietro, word in your ear, i think you are being dillusional with your optimism. Unless you are of a red brick or equivalent education you will struggle to find your way in investment banking. What is your qualifications thus far pedro?

 

[pietro]

Pietro, word in your ear, i think you are being dillusional with your optimism. Unless you are of a red brick or equivalent education you will struggle to find your way in investment banking. What is your qualifications thus far pedro?

Hi Steaming schatz
What makes you think im delusional?
I attended a good school, acquired The usual A-level's (good grades), attending top 10 university (Manchester University) on 4 year course, studying artificial intelligence & business finance.

p.s do you actually know me? just from the way your spelling my name?

Also i take it your in the industry? what IB would you recommend?

Pietro

 

[pietro]

hmmmm . . .

Well recognised that, at UBS, HR has too much influence in a great deal of things. What the hell they're doing putting potential interns on a one-day interview/test is absolutely beyond me.

CSFB . . . well, they're a well known brand but that's about the most positive thing I would say about them.

DB . . . can't comment, never worked there.

Guys, please understand, interns are foisted on a trading desk, it's pretty rare for a desk to "choose" it's intern. At the end of the day, they know nothing, are gonna be gone in three months and so, to all intents and purposes are endured more than anything else.

Unfortunately, as a route into a graduate training scheme with the larger IB's, having done an internship is pretty much required from what I can gather.

So, if you do get on one, swallow your pride, keep your mouth shut and your eyes and ears open and yes, you will be required to do the coffee run.

Hi Dashing Blade, may i ask why your not to keen on CSFB? see im very wet behind the ears and so need all the schooling!?! in this industry i can get!

Pietro

 

[Stockjunkie]

hmmmm . . .

Well recognised that, at UBS, HR has too much influence in a great deal of things. What the hell they're doing putting potential interns on a one-day interview/test is absolutely beyond me.

CSFB . . . well, they're a well known brand but that's about the most positive thing I would say about them.

What they are doing is m#$!35b%*&^g .

And CSFB are a bunch of PC cissies , God help anyone who doesn't fit in there .

 

[Stockjunkie]

Hi Steaming schatz
What makes you think im delusional?
I attended a good school, acquired The usual A-level's (good grades), attending top 10 university (Manchester University) on 4 year course, studying artificial intelligence & business finance.

p.s do you actually know me? just from the way your spelling my name?

Also i take it your in the industry? what IB would you recommend?

Pietro

Scatz is right , you are over optimistic . Manchester is no Blue chip Uni , nowadays with entrance standards so low they have Oxbridge / Harvard types queing at the door.

And in case you don't know I was in the industry as an in - house trader , proprietary broker , sales and even media .

I knew loads of industry people in Europe and Asia . Including the house traders for Golman's , UBS , Merril .

 

[pietro]

Scatz is right , you are over optimistic . Manchester is no Blue chip Uni , nowadays with entrance standards so low they have Oxbridge / Harvard types queing at the door.

And in case you don't know I was in the industry as an in - house trader , proprietary broker , sales and even media .

I knew loads of industry people in Europe and Asia . Including the house traders for Goldman's , UBS , Merril .

Stock junky, i believe these days Manchester university (not met) is number 3 in the tables? and if you go off the FT's most recent table, number 2 right behind Cams! if they recruit from Warwick and durham, which are below Manchester, then would you not agree that my chances are as good as theirs? im not being draw into a mud fight here, but answer me one Question who is head of Goldman?!? and where did he study!

 

[holy man]

hey pietro,the head of goldman economics department world wide went to sheffield university with me,and a bog standard school in Manchester before that.
your credentials are just fine...............any house who rejects you out of hand cos of your lack of "pedigree" are just plain nuts and therefore best avoided.
Networking still works however ,so get out there and do as many interviews as possible and keep your ear to the ground.
good luck

 

[Stockjunkie]

Stock junky, i believe these days Manchester university (not met) is number 3 in the tables? and if you go off the FT's most recent table, number 2 right behind Cams! if they recruit from Warwick and durham, which are below Manchester, then would you not agree that my chances are as good as theirs? im not being draw into a mud fight here, but answer me one Question who is head of Goldman?!? and where did he study!

Head of Goldman is irrelevant , you can't base your chnaces on that , you might as well say that Kingston U produces a few heads and this is a fact .

You have not been in the industry , you don't know the dirty tricks they play , you have no basis of judging.

This is what they call PC lip service , they pick a few non elites to satisfy the media watchdogs and their own PR image . Deep down they still like the elites and you are denialist of the fact that international unis are in the game too . your little MU is up against the likes of Yale and Harvard , I don't give a monkey's either way , I think the Uni name drop is for faggots .

But fact is that the powers that be in IB DO care and they care about Har/Yale/oxbridge 10x more than any other .

You have a better chance overseas . There I know guys who had NO uni education and they went right to the top with names like Socgen , JPM .

 

[A Dashing Blade]

but answer me one Question who is head of Goldman?!? and where did he study!

And when did he start in the City?
These days, you're competing with the global cohort of graddys most of whom considered (80%?) will have a masters. Most of those accepted these days are scarily bright (havn't got a clue about the real world mind, but that's another story . . ..)

Don't get us wrong, good luck if you get in.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

Head of Goldman is irrelevant , you can't base your chnaces on that , you might as well say that Kingston U produces a few heads and this is a fact .

Actually, did both of mine at Kingston! Several of us from my first one (Economics) got into the City, but that was 1985.

These days I'd have no chance.

 

[Stockjunkie]

Actually, did both of mine at Kingston! Several of us from my first one (Economics) got into the City, but that was 1985.

These days I'd have no chance.

Precisely , your case is exactly what I am on about .

In the old days they didn't care so much where you came from or what tie you wore , they really did want people with a good feel for the market not just dumb dweeb academics .

Nowadays things have changed completely and those days are dead and buried .

Of course the city still likes to perpetuate the same image as that keeps the sucker applicants rolling in . You can waste a lot of time like that - years in fact !

I wasted 1 whole year before getting my ass out of this decripid old system and overseas where i actually made some headway .

 

[A Dashing Blade]

Precisely , your case is exactly what I am on about .

In the old days they didn't care so much where you came from or what tie you wore , they really did want people with a good feel for the market not just dumb dweeb academics .

My father got me the job!
Which brings me to a further point that there's far less nepotism these day.

 

[apples10]

pietro,

Here's my tupenny worth for what it matters :-

Your credentials sound fine and you should get an offer, especially after doing the other relevant exams. But be aware that some houses will will only look at MBA or PHD's so expect many rejections.
But don't believe that the 'ideal' job will be offered to you - you may have to take a 'trainee' position, say in research initially. Manage your expectations and you'll be OK (in fact working in the City 95% of us have to do this every day!!).


My experiences of internships :-

I work for a 2nd ranking IB, we take them on our desks when we have a project for them to do (HR send around a memo of all the candidates and their skill-set). Of the 6 I've worked with (over 10 years) we offered 1 a job after graduation who worked for us for 3 years (he's now in sales at an American house), another was offered a job elsewhere in the firm, but went elsewhere. The others we never heard from, but they may have decided finance wasn't for them.


Good luck.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

. . .
The others we never heard from, but they may have decided finance wasn't for them.
. . .

I suspect that this is more common than many people realise.

 

[Stockjunkie]

My father got me the job!
Which brings me to a further point that there's far less nepotism these day.

Ah , but it most certainly does though it is much more secretive these days and geographically selective .

You could be a dummass who has a LOSING track record but if it is nice then you will get the job , if you know what I mean .

 

[pietro]

wow

First off, thank you all for your comments, all over them have been taken on board.

now moving on holy man thanks for your comments, yeah networking not quite as easy as one might expect, being in Manchester this board would seem a likely place to start however i do seem to come up against strong opposition. i do expect that though. moving on...Stockjunkie i wasnt basing my chance's on something as trivial as who is the head of Goldman, i was simple stating a fact. Now im not name dropping (concerning University) just informing you of my credentials!
Dashing blade so judging from what your saying, looks like a Masters in financial engineering is required from Said business school?!? Apples im gonna have to PM you and "pick your brain" :cheesy:

now my final question, would RBS be a wrong move? they do have a corporate finance & Financial markets division?

Pietro


p.s how would the investment managment qualification go down with IBs and others?

thanks for the feedback.