Interested in Bund v Gilt spread

aw319

Newbie
Messages
1
Likes
0
Hi I was wondering if there is a Bund v Gilt thread? If not does anyone trade the spread? Was interested in finding software(preferably the cheapest) in which you can chart the spread?

Sorry if this has already been answered 1000s of times but couldn't seem to find anything

aw
 
Lots of people trade the spread, yes... they use an autospreader (or do it manually) though as gilt is on LIFFE and bund is on EUREX.

Can't help you with cheap software to do it... It's easy enough on reuters and bbg but they aren't cheap. There will be cheap stuff to do it though, I'm certain of that...
 
AW319,

You could do it on Excel via dde's from a cheap feed.

Grant.
 
NT1,

If you are a professional trader, you can ignore the following and excuse the presumption; if retail, perhaps you should consider the points.

May I suggest you trade one or the other to gain familiarity before you look at the spread? From a possibly mis-informed perspective, any correlation is due to the UK and Germany inflationary pressures being similar. But this could change tomorrow on the release of a single figure. And while both central banks take a similar stance on inflation, actual inflation could change significantly and therefore one could hike rates while the other is unchanged.

Belief in correlation bought down LTCM. Tread warily.

Grant.
 
presumably the spread is somewhat mean-reverting??

(again, something LTCM wouldn't let go of).

Interested to hear what others have to say about this; have you traded other inter-contract spreads (e.g Euro TED term spreads)?
 
Mr Gecko,

Assuming you're talking to me, I can't see why the spread between the two should be mean-reverting; they may converge or diverge, and when the do neither presumably they revert to a mean. Seems you're looking at nothing more than a single (albeit repetitive) point in price evolution. Any connection between the two is surely tenuous.

But even with a single instrument, mean-reversion doesn't really tell you anything concrete if the price is in long-term decline (or incline). What about 'pull-to-par'? May be somethng in that.

Maybe Arabian will clarify for us and stop me making a complete twatt of myself.

Grant.
 
I shall expand a little - though I shall let it be known now that this is pushing the boundaries of any practical understanding I have!

In the first instance, I think it is important to establish the conditions under which said spread is to be traded; Arabian, if you are looking to trade the spread in the same manner as a prop trader might trade a STIR spread (that is, over short timeframes, using the balance of bids to offers, and reactions to economic announcements', to determine your positions), what follows may not be of much use to you.

(it may all be bulls!t anyway).

Now, moving on to explain the context in which I suggested the spread might be "mean reverting"...

1) LET us consider, briefly, the macroeconomic factors that drive the prices on bonds, and subsequently their futures. We have Interest rates; Inflation; Growth to begin with. This is true for both European and British debt instruments (and all FI over the world...)

2) IT could be argued that the specifics of these contributors do not differ much, if at all, between Europe and GB - (one might argue that GB is a little farther down the stagflationary route, but europe is soon to follow) - Despite the different labels they fall under (exclude currency risk for simplicity), they are very much subject to similar pressures; "A Gilt-Edged bond by any other name would smell as sweet"...

3) HAVING established that the two prices are expected to behave in very similar ways, it is natural to examine the difference between the two. Moreover, it should be possible to establish a limit whereby the difference between the two contracts is above/below that which can be reasonably expected, given the similar driving factors of price - it follows that there should be some range of differences, whereby a "spread" breaching said range offers an opportunity for "pseudo arbitrage"...

[I will take a minute to draw an analogy; Consider the TED spread - the difference between a bond underwritten by the US Treasury, and the interest available over an identical term through a Aaa rated bank at the LIBOR rate. The difference between the two represents the confidence in creditworthiness of US Treasury over the Aaa rated banks - one is a Risk-Free rate, the other is the LIBOR. There will come a point where the implied creditworthiness of the LIBOR rate is sufficiently over/under priced compared to the genuine credit risk - a pertinent example given events over the last 18 months. It may have been possible to lend to an Aa institution at a Baa rate, for example - funded by the correctly measured (or at least, less incorrect) Risk Free rate from the US Treasury. *Moody's notation*

This is of particular relevance given that the consumer has little skill in correctly determining the creditworthiness of a Bank (e.g. Northern Rock); the LIBOR contributors were aware of this, so they lied. The LIBOR fiasco continues, although on friday the BBA said they weren't going to change the measurement all that much.]

In the context of the Bund - Gilt spread, I mean to say the following: Given the similarities of the Inflation, Interest rate and Growth contributors, ceteris paribus, the two contracts should behave in the same way; Furthermore: if, say, the change in price of the Gilt contract due to inflation expectations was far removed from it's Bund counterpart - ceteris paribus - the opportunity would exist to construct a portfolio that hedged out the Interest rate and Growth risk, leaving a portfolio Long/Short "Gilt Inflation Delta" - a portfolio that would collect profit as the two indflation expectations aligned themselves.

There will exist a boundary whereby the differences in the priced-in Inflation expectation between the Bund contract vs. the Gilt contract are fundamentally reasonable; beyond that, a portfolio similar to that described above could be constructed to generate "pseudo arbitrage". So where I say "mean reverting", perhaps "range bound" is more appropriate.


Moving from a fundamental to quantitative analysis of the spread (I shall breeze over the "long on the spread because it's at a fib retracement" argument); Interest rates are frequently given the "mean reverting random walk" treatment - ergo I see no reason why the spread should be any different. Given a spread outside of the likely range, it follows that the priced-in interest rates of (at least) one of the two contracts - again, ceteris paribus - are beyond that which can be quantitavely explained. The requirements to trade the spread quantitavely are beyond me - but well within the means of some rocket scientist on a quant arb. desk; thus, we should expect the spread to behave as the quants expect it - as a mean reverting stochastic variable.


RE: Pull to Par - Grant, here you make an interesting point. Perhaps there does exist a trade that would hedge out the Inflation, Interest rate and Growth conributors, and profit from a differential between the "acceleration" of PTP the two cash bonds were demonstrating (ceteris paribus, of course). Although I must say that I think a trade that is so obvious would be priced into said cash bonds - and futures - and eliminate any opportunity for profit.

[No offence mate; i just think it's too obvious not to be priced in]


To conclude: these are the reasons why I mentioned the "mean reverting" statement. Grant(ed), "mean reversion" might be wholly inappropriate, but I hope to have explained why the "range bound" argument - what I meant to say initially - holds some firmer ground. Of course, 90% of what I say is b0llocks anyway, as consolation I attach the following documents: A chart of front month Bund future (yellow), the front month Gilt future (purple), and the spread between the two (shown below). I also attach a 365 trading day history of said contracts, for you to do with as you wish.

p.s. since starting to reply, I have polished off a bottle of 2004 cotes du rhone.

p.p.s. The excel sheet uses my DDE; choose "don't update" or it'll c0ck up.
 

Attachments

  • Bund_Gilt_spread.jpg
    Bund_Gilt_spread.jpg
    378.4 KB · Views: 412
  • Bund_Gilt_spread.xls
    165 KB · Views: 393
Last edited:
thus, we should expect the spread to behave as the quants expect it - as a mean reverting stochastic variable.

This isn't technically accurate; Quants will expect the spread to behave as the product of two mean reverting stochastic variables.
 
Mr Gecko,

Some interesting points to consider. Until I have more time (too knackered at the moment) I think it might be instructive to look at the daily change in the spread, and the daily high/low range of the change, for example. There may even be potential for very low time fames, eg 1 min, 5 min.

The spread itself doesn't seem to reveal very much bar hitting a high of eight, twice in two years.

Grant.
 
Mr Gecko,

Can you show T&S for the bund from the Aspen prog, please mate?

Grant.
 
see attached.

I have put up the T&S from TT alongside for you to compare; the TT feed does seem to be a little quicker, by a few milliseconds. By far the biggest difference is that the Aspen T&S works bottom up. There are also some discrepancies in the size of deals going through... I'm pretty certain both will be accurate, just displayed differently (i.e. 8 = 6 + 2). I timed the Print Screen to cover the passing of a minute marker, so you can try to decipher it if you are so inclined.

Why, though, would you want to use a T&S other than the one from TT???? It is likely to be the quickest (esp. via VPN) and most reliable; and is consistent with the bids and offers that'll be in your DOM.

IIRC you were interested in a package that could produce tick charts in bar form, and Aspen can do this (I think there is a 60 tick bar chart hidden behind the TT T&S). As you can see there is a DJ newswire feeding through too, something I believe you have mentioned elsewhere.

Lastly, it is possible to show both bids and asks in the Aspen T&S too, but I have these disabled.
 

Attachments

  • T&S.jpg
    T&S.jpg
    388.6 KB · Views: 324
Last edited:
Mr Gecko,

I’ll address your last post first (will come back to the penultimate later).

The reason for the T&S from Aspen was not to compare it with TT but with CQG. However, given that it’s almost 100% I’ll go with TT, it’s no longer relevant (the T&S on TT is fine). Unfortunately, X-Study can’t provide tick charts as I want them. Therefore, I’m going to stick with my retail feed just for the charting.

Prices do lag occasionally but at most only a couple of ticks (obviously it may be considerable in a fast market). I won’t be disadvantaged here as the charts only provide the entry points (plus support and resistance) which are not time-dependent.

TT will provide the prices for the entry price (if you see what I mean) and the exit price. However, I received a mail yesterday regarding an upgrade of my cheap feed, especially from 32-bit to 64-bit, so hopefully this will improve things.

Moreover, I can still use (and expand) my VBA modules with my feed. To do the same with TT would require X-Trader Pro plus X-Trader API (neither are cheap).

Is the Dow-Jones news feed an extra? If so, what’s the monthly cost?


Grant.
 
I see, that makes perfect sense.

re: DJ, there are a variety of newswires available, ranging from the cheap and not so useful to... well how much have you got?

The DJ newswire of most interest to me is the "Dow Jones Economic Report", which brings in economic data as fast as is necessary / possible given the circumstances (faster than my reactions, for example. If your remote trading, I think it's the fastest you'll get w/out reuters or BBG). It comes with FX news, FED speakers etc... as it is tailored to the money markets rather than FI or Equities.

Quotes range from $200p/m to circa $ 700 with tenfore; I should think that most of the premium feeds cover economic indicators, with varying price tags.

Dow Jones Newswires - Institutional Overview

I am waiting for Aspen to get back to me on a similar issue, I will pass on any details.
 
Mr Gecko,

Thanks for the excelent DJ link - I looked for similar but only found minimal details which told me nothing.

I'd suspect the costs of a newsfeed will be pretty similar whether bought direct or via a third party (Aspen).

Let's see what transpires.

Grant.
 
Mr Gecko,

Started a reply to the long post but its getting late. In the meantime, attached are two interesting reports re fixed income mechanics. I'll be asking questions later.

Grant.
 

Attachments

  • Derivatives Traders Signal Banks' Deterioration.doc
    28 KB · Views: 498
  • Swaps and bonds.doc
    40.5 KB · Views: 380
Mr Gecko,

A few more.

Grant.
 

Attachments

  • 0 ECB, Corp Bonds.pdf
    2 MB · Views: 1,093
  • 0 ECB, Euro Bond Spreads.pdf
    704.7 KB · Views: 759
  • 0 ECB, DTB vs LIFFE.pdf
    778.5 KB · Views: 712
Top