Career Direction

[m2chrystal]

I am an undergraduate, studying business studies at Leeds Metropolitan University. I one day hope to work in FO for an investment bank or similiar, so if you read my first sentence you may understand the dificulty I'm in.

However Im determined to turn this around. This summer I'm going on a internship in Canada (Vancouver) for a large financial firm. It may not be in investment banking though. Ive done a 6 month work placement at an accountants in my gap year prior to uni, I've fundrasied for AMR doing the Great North Run, and I run my Dad's bookstore alone from time to time, which is good experience.

But at the end of day I go to Leeds Metropolitan University. What are the chances of me landing a Summer Internship (next year) at an investment bank, not BB of course?

In my upcoming year at Uni im going to try and write for the University Publication, join a sports team etc. Howver, I've read that some of the best experience would come from trading myself and turning a small profit (could invest a few grand) - but I was wondering how you could prove you've done this to a potential employer? Also, I'm willing to do temping whilst studying - what would be the best kind of position?

In the long run I'm prepared to start in BO roles, are summer internships for these easier to obtain?

Thanks

 

[Jbat001]

Good man - did you run in the Great North Run 2008? I was there myself, though being somewhat lardy, I finished in 2:23:48!

Why do you want to trade?

I went to Leicester university. If I knew then what I know now about how the markets work, I would have put much more gusto into the idea of trading on a self-employed basis. Why? I've made and lost substantial amounts of cash spreadbetting during the last few years, before finally (just about!) getting a methodology that works. I wouldn't now let some @rsehole of a boss give me an effing hard time day after day when I can be making plenty of money for myself and setting my own agenda. Not for all the tea in China. You may be doing it for your own reasons though - the prestige, atmosphere, lifestyle.....

It depends what you want - if it's just a question of money, why not try to go it alone, especially if you have the time to slowly and intelligently build your account up?

 

[m2chrystal]

It would be nice to trade for myself, but as I know I would genuinely enjoy trading I would do it for a career.

I am thinking about starting trading for fun with a little amount (I've done it in the past - very simple, small amount), and also for potential employers to see I'm actually interested in the business. I was therefore wondering how I can prove to someone that I've actually done it - because I could make a model portfolio right now if I wanted and say it was real? Is setting it up as a company the way?

About the run - it was 2008, yes. Had a great day, going to try and run London Marathon 2010, so hard to get a place though!

 

[Jbat001]

Again, depends what you're after.

If you want to scalp for a living, spreadbetting is a worthless platform - totally unsuited. However, if you want to swing trade, it's great, and has the advantage of being tax free. Seeing as Alistair Darling has just hiked the top tax band to 50%, the benefits of tax free trading are more evident than ever! This tax advantage only holds as long as you have a 'subsistence income' from another source, so trading within a limited company will destroy the tax free advantage as you will be deemed to be trading for a living without any separate income stream that would allow the SB to be counted as tax free. If, however, you're looking to trade futures directly into the market (though this is ultimately more expensive, but you get better pricing and minimal slippage), a company is an essential tool. Trading with limited liability could not be more important when there is obviously no such thing as a guaranteed stoploss in the futures market!

As for running your own portfolio - sure, it's a great means of getting personal experience, but again, why would you put yourself into the power of an employer if your own portfolio was making consistent profits? You would be proving to yourself you could carve a living as an independent trader and then leaving it behind to get a job! I'm not sure I could do that.

You don't necessarily need a 'portfolio' as such - no need to keep 10 stocks and 5 types of futures on the monitor. If you can trade just a single market (FTSE, DAX, an FX pair, whatever) successfully and consistently, that's really all you need. Why make it harder to make money by tracking so many targets?

I don't profess to be any kind of expert at this - just got the benefit of five years experience to draw on. Feel free to PM me if you want to chat privately.

 

[Magos]

the truth big IB's wont even look at your CV if its from Leeds Metropolitan University.

In order to get them interested you must have an amazing Covering letter and also score well on online assesment like the one that UBS or db does!

 

[m2chrystal]

Yes thats what I feared. I am trying to do loads of work experience in the field to make my covering letter look great. What if I did a Masters at a Russell Group university?

Thanks Jbat001, will be in touch soon.

 

[Magos]

Yes thats what I feared. I am trying to do loads of work experience in the field to make my covering letter look great. What if I did a Masters at a Russell Group university?

Thanks Jbat001, will be in touch soon.

no! you need to FT website, find the MBA list and see best business schools and get an idea.

Scenario, start with a small bank, do 3-4 years experience and do an MBA to one of the business schools and then join associate position in a big IB

 

[m2chrystal]

OK i get you now. How come an MBA, why not something more relevant to FO IB roles (eg. Global Finance)?

What do you mean by big bank? Retail? What kind of role?

Will 3-4 years working hard for a "big bank" and good degree be enough to be accepted into one of these business schools?

 

[Magos]

OK i get you now. How come an MBA, why not something more relevant to FO IB roles (eg. Global Finance)?

What do you mean by big bank? Retail? What kind of role?

Will 3-4 years working hard for a "big bank" and good degree be enough to be accepted into one of these business schools?

big bank: jp morgan, goldman sachs
role: analyst and then associate
yes..also contacts.letters applications (CFA,FSA's) everything help

 

[m2chrystal]

Whoa sorry, i got confused. I meant to say what do you mean by small bank?

Sorry

 

[Jbat001]

I'm quite enjoying playing devil's advocate here, so I'm going to continue.... :cheesy:

4 years working as an analyst is a long time, and doubly so in finance. In that time, you could probably not only thoroughly educate yourself in your craft, but also be trading a decent profit on your own account on a self employed basis. Remember that an IB will pay you a basic salary, and an annual bonus (plus all the other tosh that the job entails - client meetings at lapdacing bars, booze and drugs after hours, etc). It's still just a salary, and no matter how much cash you make for the bank, they will trouser the profits and pay you only a mere fraction of the cash you have made!

Yes, there's more risk and less prestige being self-employed, but there is no limit whatsoever to how much cash you personally can make. If you've got the brains and balls to make it in IB, why not be making a titload of money for yoursefl rather than Goldman Sachs?

 

[m2chrystal]

Haha, do continue.

It does sound like a great prospect - I'm constantly reading on here, a couple of books, and on investopedia and it sure is a passion of mine, but I'll need money to invest, and being in the industry is quite well paid and I'll be surrounded by experienced people.

I'm certainly considering going alone, but working towards a job in IB will complement my learning of the trade.

If you trade for yourself as a career, do you need to set yourself up as a company?

 

[Magos]

I'm quite enjoying playing devil's advocate here, so I'm going to continue.... :cheesy:

4 years working as an analyst is a long time, and doubly so in finance. In that time, you could probably not only thoroughly educate yourself in your craft, but also be trading a decent profit on your own account on a self employed basis. Remember that an IB will pay you a basic salary, and an annual bonus (plus all the other tosh that the job entails - client meetings at lapdacing bars, booze and drugs after hours, etc). It's still just a salary, and no matter how much cash you make for the bank, they will trouser the profits and pay you only a mere fraction of the cash you have made!

Yes, there's more risk and less prestige being self-employed, but there is no limit whatsoever to how much cash you personally can make. If you've got the brains and balls to make it in IB, why not be making a titload of money for yoursefl rather than Goldman Sachs?

so you think a career in IB is not that good!

check this

Merrill to Pay Ex-Goldman Trader Montag $40 Million (Update2)
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By Bradley Keoun

May 2 (Bloomberg) -- Merrill Lynch & Co. will pay former Goldman Sachs Group Inc. executive Thomas Montag more than $40 million in salary and bonus to oversee trading worldwide.

Montag, 51, will receive a $39.4 million bonus for 2008, paid in cash and stock, plus a salary of $600,000, New York- based Merrill said today in a regulatory filing. Merrill said it will also compensate him for equity awards from Goldman that he's forfeiting. Those are valued at about $50 million, a person with knowledge of the matter said.

 

[N Rothschild]

nice

 

[Jbat001]

so you think a career in IB is not that good!

check this

Merrill to Pay Ex-Goldman Trader Montag $40 Million (Update2)
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By Bradley Keoun

May 2 (Bloomberg) -- Merrill Lynch & Co. will pay former Goldman Sachs Group Inc. executive Thomas Montag more than $40 million in salary and bonus to oversee trading worldwide.

Montag, 51, will receive a $39.4 million bonus for 2008, paid in cash and stock, plus a salary of $600,000, New York- based Merrill said today in a regulatory filing. Merrill said it will also compensate him for equity awards from Goldman that he's forfeiting. Those are valued at about $50 million, a person with knowledge of the matter said.

Don't get me wrong - I think IB is a highly respectable (as well as obviously lucrative) profession. That one trader you cite will be minted,as will many of his contemporaries.

Holding up that example though is a bit like looking at the salaries of Premiership footballers as representative of all league football. A very small number will make megabucks, while most will do quite nicely and a few will earn peanuts in lower league footy. My point is that at least as a self employed trader, how far you progress and how much cash you can make is determined by nothing other than your own skill and determination, not whether a potential boss thinks you went to the 'right' university, move in particular social circles or are a fellow Freemason.

It's about nothing other than the trading. Whilst it might not always happen, I can't bear people not shining in their chosen art for some bullsh!t reason cooked up by someone higher up the chain.

 

[Magos]

Don't get me wrong - I think IB is a highly respectable (as well as obviously lucrative) profession. That one trader you cite will be minted,as will many of his contemporaries.

Holding up that example though is a bit like looking at the salaries of Premiership footballers as representative of all league football. A very small number will make megabucks, while most will do quite nicely and a few will earn peanuts in lower league footy. My point is that at least as a self employed trader, how far you progress and how much cash you can make is determined by nothing other than your own skill and determination, not whether a potential boss thinks you went to the 'right' university, move in particular social circles or are a fellow Freemason.

It's about nothing other than the trading. Whilst it might not always happen, I can't bear people not shining in their chosen art for some bullsh!t reason cooked up by someone higher up the chain.

Examples(approx.)
First year analyst on a trader floor in goldmans 35K + around 25K bonus
First year analyst on a trader floor in UBS30K + around 10K bonus

Its like footbal players it depends what team you play and also what sport you play

for instance FX its the best this year last year was CBS's

 

[msrxlbp2]

Sorry to be a kill joy but there are more people leaving the industry right now than joining it & couple that with mass redundancies - I'd say it is harder than ever to get a foot in the door. Probably something people don't consider much these days is that larger IB's have sent Operational functions to low cost locations so that way in is becoming extinct also. Some things in this industry don't change and the fact remains that a polished CV and a place on a front office grad scheme is still by far the best way to make serious money at a young age.....failing that you will be one of many fighting over a "promotion" to desk assistant from operations.

 

[Magos]

just got that from joslinrowe

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[gooseman]

do you work in a bank magos?

 

[Magos]

do you work in a bank magos?

i would like to think so!