Capitalism

[barjon]

Hi new_trader, good to see you again

Since I can't reply to your "private" thread lol:even the Hyde Park Corner soap-boxers stand a bit of heckling) I'll just draw out you final plea:

We need to move back to free-market CAPITALISM.

Yeah, bring it on baby. Why not go right back to proper dog eat dog capitalism and stick a few kids up the chimneys and down the mines. Pay 'em in stale bread and gruel I say.

 

[neil]

Sweeping Capitalism

Hi new_trader, good to see you again

Since I can't reply to your "private" thread lol:even the Hyde Park Corner soap-boxers stand a bit of heckling) I'll just draw out you final plea:

We need to move back to free-market CAPITALISM.

Yeah, bring it on baby. Why not go right back to proper dog eat dog capitalism and stick a few kids up the chimneys and down the mines. Pay 'em in stale bread and gruel I say.

Now, that cruel Barjon. You know the little fat (obese) boys would, nowadays, get stuck up the chimneys.

 

[Atilla]

Hi new_trader, good to see you again

Since I can't reply to your "private" thread lol:even the Hyde Park Corner soap-boxers stand a bit of heckling) I'll just draw out you final plea:

We need to move back to free-market CAPITALISM.

Yeah, bring it on baby. Why not go right back to proper dog eat dog capitalism and stick a few kids up the chimneys and down the mines. Pay 'em in stale bread and gruel I say.

Agreed as I see capitalism as a failed system that's bankrupt. I'm increasingly becoming anti-capitalist.

We need a new system. Lurching from one system to another in the polar extremes is not the solution.

FREE-Capitalism based on neo-classical economists sucks big time.

Key problem with capitalism; it doesn't do slow downs. Imagine driving a car where one either accelerates or crashes.

To quote theory like well if the marginal-returns on company A is greater than company B then to maximise profits one should pull money out of company B and stick it in company A. This is just a load of nonsense. Regarding switching of resources they'll talk about frictional and structural employment/unemployment etc and how the salaries rising in one sector will divert resources from one into the other. Not to mention land or capital switching or time-lags.

I'm still in shock as to how after the biggest mess in banking not one executive has been charged or fired?

Instead the free marketeers blame Clinton's policies, encouraging building and home sales. Same people have not much to say about the rest of the world's banking crises including our famous UK ones too. Greenspan hasn't come out smelling of roses but does come out with a few quotes once in a while; like admitting Iraq was about oil.


Just to recap neo-con anti-blurb;

1. There is no perfect information to all participants. BUT there is manipulation and insider trading and those with key info and those with late and disinformation.

2. Individuals and companies do not maximise profits but they satisfice and maximise personal individual benefit and rewards by excessive risk taking at public & shareholder expense. This was not the intended explanation for the invisible hand but increasingly the invisible hand is very much at work behind closed doors.

3. It can also be shown that there is a herd mentality, one where the invisible hand pursuing self interest leads to an alternative outcome. A perfectly good bank can be brought down by individuals pursuing self interest and in the process causing the loss of the very self interest they claim to preserve.

There is duplicity, deceit and paradox all over the place.


One really needs applied intelligence and not some regurgitated non-sense dating back to late 18th / 19th century.

 

[tomorton]

Capitalism sometimes has unexpected and amoral outcomes which can cause problems in those areas but how has the system failed?

 

[Atilla]

Capitalism sometimes has unexpected and amoral outcomes which can cause problems in those areas but how has the system failed?

Would you disagree with the comment that the bailout of the banks by governments is effectively nationalisation or subsidising the private sector with public sector tax payers monies?

The capitalisation of the banks should be by the shareholders according to my understanding of free market economy.

 

[barjon]

Would you disagree with the comment that the bailout of the banks by governments is effectively nationalisation or subsidising the private sector with public sector tax payers monies?

The capitalisation of the banks should be by the shareholders according to my understanding of free market economy.

Many years ago the Italians pulled a cute trick with their "nationalisation". They took a 51% stake in the leading company in key sectors and used that as an "active" shareholding forcing those companies to adopt an innovation/growth approach. In turn, this forced competing companies to change their approach to try and keep up with those leaders. Really kick started the Italian economy that. Clever.

 

[tomorton]

I don't see use of tax revenue generated by capitalism in order to maintain the economic system as being inherently risky or immoral. It is capitalism which funds the public sector so its in everyone's interest that damage to the system be limited in time and severity.

 

[Atilla]

I don't see use of tax revenue generated by capitalism in order to maintain the economic system as being inherently risky or immoral. It is capitalism which funds the public sector so its in everyone's interest that damage to the system be limited in time and severity.

Can't argue with that.

Capitalism owns us all.

This is where I walk away and climb back up my tree.

 

[Jack o'Clubs]

To paraphrase Churchill on democracy, capitalism is the worst form of economic management apart from all the other forms that have been tried from time to time.

Although he did go on to say that the best argument against democracy is to spend five minutes with the average voter.

Really the best argument for capitalism is the fact that the Chinese who operate a benign autocracy and therefore can pretty much do what they like are moving ever more rapidly towards it.

 

[Splitlink]

I don't see use of tax revenue generated by capitalism in order to maintain the economic system as being inherently risky or immoral. It is capitalism which funds the public sector so its in everyone's interest that damage to the system be limited in time and severity.

Tax generated by capitalism is not immoral, IMO. However, what gets up ordinary working and middle class noses is the creaming off, by those who are able to do it, of millions into offshore bank accounts and, it seems to me, they are protected by their respective governments.

In Spain, not one day goes by without new names being investigated by our tax authorities. What is going to happen , in the elections due at year end, is that there will be a massive move away from the two main parties, to new emerging ones.

An ex-president of Cataluña, who was in office for 23 years and, prior to that,was vice president of defunct Banca Catalana has been helping his wife and seven kids, to syphon off millions in commissions from public works contractors.

This person was an icon for Catalans. He stood on a balcony and ranted about corruption in Madrid and the people cheered in the square below.

I feel so sorry for them. They did not deserve that.

This unacceptable part of capitalism has to go and I'm afraid that it has to be a global effort. Offshore havens must be eliminated. We, even, have them inside the EU, for Heaven's sake.

Pardon the rant, but the capitalist system and democracy, in general, is at risk because of this.

 

[tomorton]

I hope capitalism survives. It should not be abandoned because some people abuse its weaknesses: that would be like saying that road safety is a bad idea because some people exceed the speed limit.

 

[Splitlink]

It is in danger of being abandoned, though, because the masses, who have a democratic vote in Western style societies, are fed up, to the teeth, with the way our present system allows our tax money to be pilfered.

What is the common comment made by the people who do this?

"It is perfectly legal for me to do it"

The immorality of what they do is not questioned by them.

Unfortunately, the parties who take advantage of this situation to get into power, themselves, are clueless.

 

[tomorton]

Clueless? There's no evidence of this. For them its a win-win situation as long as they can maintain power, and they can do this by democratically listening to / manipulating the support of the masses.

So, if capitalism persists, they will carry on with their tax avoidance measures as before: if capitalism is found so dangerous that it needs to be replaced, they will be the ones fashioning the replacement, which would no doubt be a more centralised, managed economic system, somewhere along the spectrum that leads to socialism, with the same people and groups at the head. No need to think they would leave themselves jobless and out of power.

In due course, capitalism would re-assert itself for a further cycle and so it goes on.

 

[Pat494]

The gap between rich and poor is getting ever wider. The Conservatives have given the poor a pay rise on the basic wage of a whopping 20 pence an hour! This is to get re-elected, which they might well do because the Opposition socialists are pretty useless- have a Mansion Tax screams Ed Balls-up. To prove how dotty they are.
The basic wage should be doubled and even that isn't enough to live on. They have earned the nicknames of meanies and nasties for very good reasons. They deserve a good whipping imho.

 

[Splitlink]

Clueless? There's no evidence of this. For them its a win-win situation as long as they can maintain power, and they can do this by democratically listening to / manipulating the support of the masses.

So, if capitalism persists, they will carry on with their tax avoidance measures as before: if capitalism is found so dangerous that it needs to be replaced, they will be the ones fashioning the replacement, which would no doubt be a more centralised, managed economic system, somewhere along the spectrum that leads to socialism, with the same people and groups at the head. No need to think they would leave themselves jobless and out of power.

In due course, capitalism would re-assert itself for a further cycle and so it goes on.

This is where we come back to what I said before. Capitalism must be tackled on a global scale, otherwise the avoiders will, always be able to avoid.

Back to Spain, because that is what I know about, rather than the UK.

The Americans, recently, accused an Andorran bank of money-laundering for US citizens and the Andorran Government, immediately, shut one bank down.

That bank owns the Spanish Bank of Madrid, which has been closed down for investigation by our tax people, A lot of ordinary people have their savings in that bank, if not privately, then through pension funds, etc. Spain guarantees 100,000 euros per account. So pension funds and large account holders are in serious trouble.

Spain has found irregularities with someone with a Chinese name, I don't know the details but as soon as it became known, Andorra offered to swap this person's details with Madrid, in exchanged for details of the Pujol family which appears to have money in the Andorran bank. He was the Catalan president I mentioned earlier.

This is all a big can of worms and one country, by itself, will never be able to do anything about it. as long as these offshore financial centres exist.

 

[tomorton]

Have you guys not heard there's now a grumpy old gits thread?

Meantime I'm looking forward to going long on some multi-national that's ripping ore out of wildernesses and turning it into anti-tank ammunition.

And then not even paying any tax on my SB winnings - but that's a whole different thread....

 

[Atilla]

This is where we come back to what I said before. Capitalism must be tackled on a global scale, otherwise the avoiders will, always be able to avoid.

Back to Spain, because that is what I know about, rather than the UK.

The Americans, recently, accused an Andorran bank of money-laundering for US citizens and the Andorran Government, immediately, shut one bank down.

That bank owns the Spanish Bank of Madrid, which has been closed down for investigation by our tax people, A lot of ordinary people have their savings in that bank, if not privately, then through pension funds, etc. Spain guarantees 100,000 euros per account. So pension funds and large account holders are in serious trouble.

Spain has found irregularities with someone with a Chinese name, I don't know the details but as soon as it became known, Andorra offered to swap this person's details with Madrid, in exchanged for details of the Pujol family which appears to have money in the Andorran bank. He was the Catalan president I mentioned earlier.

This is all a big can of worms and one country, by itself, will never be able to do anything about it. as long as these offshore financial centres exist.

Fact of capitalism and this should be one of its key driving assumptions;
- internalise all profits and externalise all costs eg., pollution

No point going into rules and laws, regulation and compliance, social costs etc etc. Free marketeers will argue these shouldn't exist and simply a cost of transaction that should be borne by others. These real costs are effectively externalities; perceived as preventing the free market from working efficiently.

 

[0007]

Capitalism is like Democracy in that it's the least worst option.

 

[Pat494]

Capitalism's greatest weakness is that it is so unfair. I think I read somewhere that the 1% richest people own 95% of the planet's assets.
That unfairness has been large enough to have cost a huge amount of grief and envy. In fact it was the prime cause of the French and Russian revolutions. The Brits cleverly backed off just enough after serious riots to stop actually having a revolution, unless you call Cromwell a revolutionary. The French and Russian ruling class didn't see it coming and suffered the consequences.
The American Dream has come good for some penniless immigrants. Not all but enough to keep the country from exploding.

Capitalism let's the rich become richer and it grinds down the poor. As a system it stinks but there are enough rich to make it continue, by giving enough crumbs to the poor to keep them quiet.

 

[Splitlink]

Capitalism is like Democracy in that it's the least worst option.

Capitalism without democracy is unthinkable, but lots of countries are without it, so we must make sure never to lose our democratic rights.

What else should we moan about?