binary options?

[doobs]

hi guys,
just wanted to know what the pro's in here think about binaries. Do any of you use them, and what do you think about the pricing of them etc?

Just started with them myself and at the moment i find trading them easier and more profitable than the spot fx. In the back of my mind however just got a feeling they are a bit mickey mouse. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

cheers - ian

 

[davidfielder]

Hi
Ok, I am getting annoyed. This guy above is basically trolling. This is pretty low and I am not sure why it's ok by the forums' admin to allow this link and not my posts. In any event, if this does get online, I suggest you do more reading from impartial sources and not just someone with a name like 1ycs5 - looks real legit no?

Binary options are in fact a great vehicle in the financial markets. But to declare that's it's more or less profitable than another financial instrument is not a fair assessment. Forex can be insanely profitable, I have been trading forex and still do since 1998. Binary options are just a different way of trading forex or other assets. It's still the same charts you are looking at, but instead of deciding the amount of pips you need in order to turn a profit, here with binaries you just need to specify the time needed for the market to rise or fall just 0.1 pips.

So it's sort of a inverted dynamic making it easier for the majority of people to get involved. So if you don't trade forex or binaries at the moment, binary options are an easier gateway to this world. But necessarily any more or less profitable.

Hope that helps a bit

 

[moka2]

Hi
Ok, I am getting annoyed. This guy above is basically trolling. This is pretty low and I am not sure why it's ok by the forums' admin to allow this link and not my posts. In any event, if this does get online, I suggest you do more reading from impartial sources and not just someone with a name like 1ycs5 - looks real legit no?

Binary options are in fact a great vehicle in the financial markets. But to declare that's it's more or less profitable than another financial instrument is not a fair assessment. Forex can be insanely profitable, I have been trading forex and still do since 1998. Binary options are just a different way of trading forex or other assets. It's still the same charts you are looking at, but instead of deciding the amount of pips you need in order to turn a profit, here with binaries you just need to specify the time needed for the market to rise or fall just 0.1 pips.

So it's sort of a inverted dynamic making it easier for the majority of people to get involved. So if you don't trade forex or binaries at the moment, binary options are an easier gateway to this world. But necessarily any more or less profitable.

Hope that helps a bit

Current Binary Options brokers are thinly regulated , I would be concerned with sharks.....
Transparancy and client money safety don;t be sucked in to by Instant success of 70% ROI in 30 mins etc
there are I thinkl 60 sec Binaries also

By all means take market risk but to take this additional risk of dodgy brokers is susidal .. are there not enough scoundrels in teh FX market already?

Study Call or Put Option spreads on regulated exchanges you can construct your own Binary yourself even on Weekly OPtions! and your broker is likely to be regulated by SEC / SIPC cover etc

Be very carful about OTC ( Over the counter Financial products ) and it's operators
MK

 

[davidfielder]

Moka,
Nothing wrong with what you are saying. Frankly, I think you are right. Thing is, many people want a better and easier product than trading via an exchange and clunky trading systems that provide access. So yes, people are inherently willing to take on slightly higher risk in order to be able to trade in an easier manner.

However, as noted above, regulation does NOT insure you in any way. It provides no real safety in the end as you can see from the many forex brokers that have failed. Nonetheless, I still trade forex. I still trade forex both via a forex broker as well as via binary options

Not sure what that means but I guess I am like everyone else

 

[moka2]

David
So are you saying it is OK to have such situation!
"So yes, people are inherently willing to take on slightly higher risk in order to be able to trade in an easier manner."
In Australia Sonray Capital MArkets went broke witha 47M fraud that is not "slightly higher risk " The CEo is in Jail for 10 years..and we still think ASIC is a tothless watchdog
I guess if it had 47M clients with onlya $1 invested it woudl have ben OK too becasue everybody would have only lost $1 nothing to cry about!

 

[moka2]

I agree whoever designed Binary Option interface did a good job as they do look user friendly but does that make it OK for them to be unregulated! what sort of logic would that be? andw hat about lots of unsuspecting small investors? as soon as they see teh word Broker they thing everybody is aove board!

 

[Trader333]

..This is pretty low and I am not sure why it's ok by the forums' admin to allow this link and not my posts...

We don't allow it but then we only become aware of these things if they are reported. You will note that the post you refer to is now gone.

 

[davidfielder]

We don't allow it but then we only become aware of these things if they are reported. You will note that the post you refer to is now gone.

OK - I think you are right in dumping that sort of thing
Low level trolling is pretty gross
Kudos

 

[davidfielder]

I agree whoever designed Binary Option interface did a good job as they do look user friendly but does that make it OK for them to be unregulated! what sort of logic would that be? andw hat about lots of unsuspecting small investors? as soon as they see teh word Broker they thing everybody is aove board!

It's not about being regulated or unregulated. When you place your money you expect something in return. It's only when you don't get your service/product do you get rightfully upset. Regulation doesn't necessaerily solve that in forex - so why would it do so for binary?

Look, I am no pundit for anti-regulation but the current form of regulation is a load of crap for consumerists. The fact is, there are 3 issues regarding "regulation" that a brokerage needs to comply with:
1. Capital requirements : the point of this is a cheap and easy way for the regulator to access the brokerage account, see what's going on, and lay down fines when the broker isn't "compliant". But what good is creating a % based formula which means that the broker MUST have X% of the volume invested by customers as cash on hand? Does that protect the trader? No, it does not. I won't get into the accounting here - but there is nothing barring the brokerage from taking a loan that is greater in size than the amount laid out for capital requirements (see all the failed brokers - this is how they failed)
2. Compliance - this is the real reason regulation is in place. Country's like the US, UK, and Europe do NOT want to see money leaving their shores. So to prevent it, they make REALLY hard to open accounts these days. Loads of paperwork, scans, and a mess of tax issues (at least in the US) make it a pain to open with a regulated broker overseas. So most do it onshore in their own country. Suddenly its easier. But the regulator also must comply with government sanctioned big brother stuff (anti money laundering which is just a policy used as a proxy for the tax authorities and anti terrorist funding policies - well that's a good one, but it's meaningless to 99.99999% of the human population. So where is the protection here for the trade? Still nothing right!
3. Marketing - the last bastion of the consumerist. Yes, the regulator requires the broker to place a risk warning at eye level on the web site, a risk warning on banners and landing pages. Hmmm - where's the consumerism here? It's a load of crap. How does telling me that there's a lot of risk in forex help me in any way?

Look, maybe you'll just see this as me being anti-government or anti regulation or just a libertarian nut. Not sure - probably I am bit of all of them. But, think hard what regulation actually does, who's it out to protect, and what has it done for you lately.

This doesn't pardon binary options. It's simply a counter weight to the "regulation or die" thinking that has prevailed in forex.

 

[moka2]

David when I read your posts I get a impression that you are a fair person in terms of accessing this issue but when I read ...on one hand you say " I agree with the risk concerns you have raised" and on other hand you seems to dismiss the notion of good regulation in above post!
I am confused
worst you label the genuine questions raised as consumerism!
Agree that current regulations might be inadequate but rather than than strengthning them it seems you argue that "No regulation is better"
I was on the creditor's committee when a AUS broker (OTC mainly) went belly up with fraud of 47 million
And why that happened because the Auditors and regulators did not pick it up early..
So shall we just say Oh bad luck.. Mr Mum and Dad investor..
We believe in Market forces so we will allow anybody with $2 company to offer financial products
We will allow anybody to offer "investment advice"
We will allow anybody to allow to manage your money

C'mon it seems it is almost now becoming Left wing R wing debate.. I am no Lefty but I do believe in fair play

Any way If you could simply throw some light on
How does one know that Binary Brokers don't have vested interest in you loosing as compared to somebody like IB who is just an "execution only" broker on a regulated "lit" market and you get SIPC insurance cover

Any way Let teh dog eat the dog who cares

 

[davidfielder]

Hi
Firstly, if you agree that there is something terribly wrong with the way regulators regulate, then we are in agreement. My issue is not that consumerism is a bad thing, quite the contrary. I meant "consumerism" as a means of conveying that UNFORTUNATELY regulators DO NOT have the actual consumer in mind here - that's supposed to be us. They actually have the large brokers partially in mind but more imprtoantly they have the TAX authority in mind. And that's a jagged pill to swallow. Logical Legislation has yet to be passed by any egulatory board that makes sense for the consumer that is really there for the consumer.

For example, and to stress my real point, if there was a law that said that any broker who's caught stealing or manipulating prices for the comsumers detriment, who's CEO is tenuring for more than 2 years, the CEO will be disallowed from working for any investment firm in the country for 10 years. That would make sense. Guess what, no monkey business ever again. Cooking the books and other corporate malfeasance isn't really something that can be stopped by a regulator. If a company is not on the straight and narrow - nothing will get them back there. But a regulator needs to make the consumer of the product they are regulating the #1 priority. And it's simply not even close to the case.

With all due respect to these absurd laws of marketing they place on brokers. That doesn't help anyone (no one stopped smoking even though everyone knows they are bad for you. If they are so bad and intoxicating, and addictive then why aren't they simply illegal -same goes for forex, binary, options trading, etc...)

Same thing with KYC - who does this protect. Certainly no one but the broker and the tax authorities

Trading restrictions - lower leverage? Who does that help? Ah yes, the broker again. Less Capital requirements. Cheaper to do business. Easier to put a lean against other assets and leverage the business to oblivion.

So no, I don't blame the regulators. They got us by the $%^*@. We can't complain to them for messing with our trading cause they put in restrictions on the brokers - so they are with us in mind, right?

I think you see my point. Hope so anyway

As for the broker you mentioned, nothing can prevent fraud. I agree, it sucks. But there have always been ponzi schemes since the dawn of time. Pyramid schemes are a dime a dozen. There will ALWAYS be another Madoff and there will always be a crashing bank/broker due to improper use of funds. Always. Sucks to hear. Sucks even worse if your funds were lost in the process. But if anything must be taken away from the last 4 years of corporate busts is that ANYONE can fall. Regulation isn't what's going to save us from ourselves.

Certainly not in the case of binary either, which will be regulated sometime in early 2013 by CYSEC and very soon thereafter by all of MIFID.

Insurance will be part of that as well.

 

[moka2]

So at the end of teh day wheer exactly do you stand.. it seems you don't want Binary and Fx rgulated
Ypu kepp mentioning "Certainly not in the case of binary either, which will be regulated sometime in early 2013 by CYSEC and very soon thereafter by all of MIFID.
Why bring in Tax issue?

Who would trust CYSEC regulations! it woudl be a joke if you would have said SEC or ASIC in Australia or FSA I would listen
By the way atleast in Australia theer are laws againts company directors who defraud

"if there was a law that said that any broker who's caught stealing or manipulating prices for the comsumers detriment, who's CEO is tenuring for more than 2 years, the CEO will be disallowed from working for any investment firm in the country for 10 years

 

[davidfielder]

Of course there are laws against fraud. But each year the NFA, FSA and other "proper" regulators come down with stiff fines against the Gain Capitals of the world, the FXCMs of the world etc... But what comes of it. They pay a few mil, and they carry on their merry way. Who is better for it? Have they stopped being predators? No. They are just going to get smarter doing what they do.

The issue with CYSEC is moot. Seeing as how CYSEC is just an arm of MIFID, you are saying that MIFID is a joke. And I don't think that's the case. Firstly, they are modeled on the FSA system. So if that's the case, the FSA is a joke too.

To some extent, the above statement is true. Regulators are a joke. But yes, the tax issue is the major issue. If you are naive enough to think that regulators exist for the betterment of society, you are living in lalaland.

Although not much on the subject is available as it pertain to other regulators, you will find a plethora of info about WHY the NFA/CFTC even came to be in regards to forex regulation. The FINRA case is as easy to spot as any. They were ONLY after saving their own futures market income. Forex is a threat to them so legislation came to nip it in the bud. Because futures are exchange traded, it's easy to tax and easy for FINRA, CFTC, and NFA to make the money needed on it. And they make loads on it. So yes, they are regulators - but they have an agenda that is NOT the trader.

So long as that is the case, Yes, I absolutely have an anti-regulator approach. I think regualtion works when it's directly applicable to the consumer. These examples are actually, and unfortunately, far and few between. Food and drug regualtors are all too often on the take. But the actual regulation is a net good for the consumer - even if it's being manipulated. But what's good about regulation in forex/ binary options? Show me a case where there was a net positive result for the consumer - beyond insurance which actually has nothing to do with regulation. It's only a by-product of it. You get insurance if you are willing to give up and that which you really want, which is a broker giving you more. So take less and get insurance. That's a tradeoff - not a net positive. (Although I 100% admit that insurance is ABSOLUTELY the holy grail of consumer protection, it only comes in the face of a broker fail - and statistically, that's still a rare occurrence).

 

[moka2]

Whatever you have against tax does not excuse the negatives of this OTC product and lawlessness becasue of lack of regulationand mushrooming of the Binary and FX
Why donlt you answer these straight forward questions without brining in Tax and all othe things
- Is the Binary Options provider as transperent as a true Exchange if answer is yes HOW?

- How do I know there is not a conflict of interest

- Why is there so much bad press about it? I am sure not everybody who are asking these questions are not control freak
- Why on earth they not set shop in USA and UK so that people like me won;t ask these difficult questions?
I think it is very clear that you have a vested interest in promoting this OTC ( If I am wrong please correct me) do you get and benefits by promoting the various brokers on your blog?
Lets stop going around in circles

 

[davidfielder]

- Is the Binary Options provider as transperent as a true Exchange if answer is yes HOW?
Ok - I am lost. I have no idea what a transparent exchange is. Please explain what transparency you expect from an exchange and I will see if it relates in any way to OTC products in general and specifically to those in forex/binary

- How do I know there is not a conflict of interest
With who? Me? If yes, no idea why you would think this. Where's my conflict? I am 100% for forex and binary options. I am PRO open markets. I am PRO capitalism. I am pro operators of forex/binary companies - i have nothign to hide my friend.

I agree, getting screwed sucks. But it's not my fault. It's the regulation that is terrible, manipulated, and serving the WRONG side. But that's just my opinion - you can say "the hell with you" and this conversation will be over. But I think you know that I am right and that justice is not being served at least not as it pertains to us the customers and that's a BIG problem

 

[moka2]

David I don;t know wjhy you misundrstand many things I say and can we please keep to specifics rather than ideological debate about capitalism and sundry
1) Transparancy of the product:
Read my othe rposting but here it is
- Tranparancy of Depth of Market
- Transparancy of Volume
- Know who exactly the Counterparty is
- Transparancy of prices which can be independently checked ( not prices made / spiked by the OTC provider)
- Ability ot get out of contract
- Transparancy on what the underlying instrument is .. Even somebody as reputed as William Hill has a very "Diff definantion" of what FTSE LIie product is
Now tell me how exactly Binary is better in this regard?
2) Conflict: I was referring to conflict between Binary OPtiosn broker being a Market Maker and thetrader as comapred to say IB and NYSe and you and me
I don;t know whay did you think I was referring to any conflict between you and me

Me getting financially scrwed has made me more aware and hence the logical questions.. on the other hand you are now very clearly just going on about some ideological stance..
Mate I am not opposed to market risk, free emarket My concerns are based upon factual issue swith these products.. so if you have product knowledge rather than brining tax issues and capitalism just look at the point in my POint 1 and see what facts you can put on table
Any way

 

[davidfielder]

HI
1. I understand now what you mean. I just don't think that these are the issues of concern to the casual or even intermediate trader. They don't care who the trade is going to in the end, so long as execution is on point, no slippage, and they can trade whenever the market is open on 1 platform. So maybe the argument here is not about better/worse but rather who's it better for. The casual trader who wants things simple and easy isn't about to build their own options and seeing as how they are unavailable for intra-day, that's where everything is being lost to the retail broker (cause that's what retail wants)

You seem like you know what you're talking about - so Retail brokers are probably not right for you unless you want the intra-day hedge. I know a lot of seriously big traders who take advantage of retail broker's because of this.

2. I see, I am not sure I completely agree. In forex for example, the IB wants to see you trade your brains out. He's not out for your good. On the other hand, NYSE is a product. And it's a very good product that serves the public very well. Obviously the needs of the public for a NYSE as compared to a goptions are very different. The people trading on NYSE are looking for something very specific and those needs are met. But the same can be said about the goptions of the world. Know what I mean?

 

[moka2]

I am no industry expert but simple logical digging in these produces these relevant questions
Client money safety should be a an important thing no matter what account size the client account is.. very funadamental


What I ment by NYSE was in ref to conflict of interest question you had raised NYSE as a an Exchange has NO conflict of Interest becasue they don;t loose if you win they are just an exchange
Similarly when I said IB I meant Interactive Broker ( not an Introducery Broker)another huge regulated broker SIPC covered SEC etc or for that matter any majoor broker .. as comapred to any major Market Maker broker even if he is regulated
THERE IS A CLEAR CONFLICT OF INTEREST IN A MARKET MAKER MODEL don;t you see It!
I rest may case ..
I thin I have put my point forward in very systematic manner

 

[moka2]

David this is my last post on this subject
I don;t think you are interested in open mindedly looing k at the various risks I have mentioned

If you wish to risk your capital on dodge brokers and dodgy products by all means do that but please don;t say that risks don;t exists or they are not worth thinking about
The only +Ve I see about Binary is simple platform and daily expiary

 

[davidfielder]

Hi
It's not a question of open mindedness. It's a question of why compare 2 different products that don't offer the same people the same solution. It's like trying to compare a Jeep with a race car. Both are different products. The risks may outweigh the reward by trading with what you call a dodgy broker. But who are you to say that an exchange is really any better? I can tell you first hand what I've seen stock market makers do to ECNs. They literally raped traders on the other side of trades by acting as the "market maker" on EXCHANGES. So I have no idea what you're talking about.

Exchanges are just the arena. They have no intrinsic value beyond setting up the rules of a game. If those rules can be exploited for profit, then someone will - and does.

A broker is the same thing. Nothing in the world will protect you from a broker out to screw you. It didn't help customers of Gain, FXCM, PFG, Refco, WorldSpreads, and many many others. This has nothing to do with whether the company defrauds big or steals little. Whether they get caught or not. You are choosing to hide behind the word "exchange" as if it stops the problem.

Well, OTC is not the problem seeing as how BANKS (yeah, those entities that all crashed out in 2008) were and still are offering binary options as an OTC product via their dealing rooms.

So really, just think outside the box.
Think whether the product you have is really any better. Certainly not just because of regulation.

Sure, transparency is very important if you are moving serious volume, but otherwise - what's the real difference. If you are pushing anything under 100 mio a day, this whole conversation is moot.