Am I an Idiot?

[Rowtheboat]

A Good Day to you all. I am new to all of this and will come directly to the issue for me: I am investigating online trading as an option, 'swing' or 'day' trading interests me, I have used online an online platform (etoro) in 'demo' mode and taught myself very successfully. I was happy and confident with this stage of the learning process, the mechanics of trading the 'swing' and thought that being over sixty years old and a critical sceptic from my forty plus years of self employment and life's complex game of monetary musical chairs, I would look at the actuality in numbers. Now I chose crypto currencies as a target because they are highly volatile so plenty of swings. Insurmountable problem. The actual chart values top and bottom per 'swing' are massively different to the offered buy and sell prices on the platform, the platform (etoro) has to make money for sure, but in buying Etherium for example the differential is so great that one seems to be unable to make any real gains, buying price is $30 above spot, selling price also significantly below spot, apologies if my terms are incorrect I am not literate in terms yet. Now this 'Spread'(is that the term)? by the platform is only such on tradable 'stuff' so seemingly to block activity and encourage only 'hold' positions. Yes I could trade semi obscure Chinese manufacturers or Gold mining stocks where the 'spread' is negligible, the actual price buy and sell pretty well match the spot live prices but then the gain is so small you would need a very large investment to make gains. If I were to trade crypto with £2000/£5000 'bank' with swings of regular double digit percentage points and high initial prices (Etherium was the experiment) then all well and good, but stocks with low values and low volatility, well it's obvious isn't it. So checked other platforms, checked idea of live charts and buying elsewhere which doesn't seem to be possible (some only offer crypto for crypto and coinbase has reputational and speed issues it seems) so this seems to be the insurmountable problem. When I write this I sound so ridiculous, if it had been so easy everyone would be making fortunes 'swing' trading as I find the mechanics of prediction so obvious it's laughable, obviously then they will design a barrier. I am, by the way, massively risk averse hence leveraged trading is just not an option. I looked at fees and 'spread' (in my terms, the disparity between live chart buy and sell prices and platform or broker prices and fees) across all available vehicles to no avail, being in the U.K. some platforms are not available but I assume they would be the same (Webull etc). So, my thanks to anyone who read all of this absolute amateur nonsense and if anyone managed to and were so kind as to reply saying 'Yes you are an idiot and a waste of our experience and time' this would be appreciated so that I could close my file on 'swing trading' as a possibility of making additional income. My sincere thanks, it is not pleasant, but necessary to reveal myself as a complete idiot publicly on a forum to gain knowledge.

 

[BigDeal]

Well. idiots would dive straight in and pay the consequences, so by doing some research and using a demo you've avoided that moniker I think.
Regarding yourself as 'massively risk averse' and thinking about swing trading cryptos? That's contradictory. (maybe you're more of an oxymoron!). You need to rethink your approach and starting point.

 

[MasterOfCoin]

A Good Day to you all. I am new to all of this and will come directly to the issue for me: I am investigating online trading as an option, 'swing' or 'day' trading interests me, I have used online an online platform (etoro) in 'demo' mode and taught myself very successfully. I was happy and confident with this stage of the learning process, the mechanics of trading the 'swing' and thought that being over sixty years old and a critical sceptic from my forty plus years of self employment and life's complex game of monetary musical chairs, I would look at the actuality in numbers. Now I chose crypto currencies as a target because they are highly volatile so plenty of swings. Insurmountable problem. The actual chart values top and bottom per 'swing' are massively different to the offered buy and sell prices on the platform, the platform (etoro) has to make money for sure, but in buying Etherium for example the differential is so great that one seems to be unable to make any real gains, buying price is $30 above spot, selling price also significantly below spot, apologies if my terms are incorrect I am not literate in terms yet. Now this 'Spread'(is that the term)? by the platform is only such on tradable 'stuff' so seemingly to block activity and encourage only 'hold' positions. Yes I could trade semi obscure Chinese manufacturers or Gold mining stocks where the 'spread' is negligible, the actual price buy and sell pretty well match the spot live prices but then the gain is so small you would need a very large investment to make gains. If I were to trade crypto with £2000/£5000 'bank' with swings of regular double digit percentage points and high initial prices (Etherium was the experiment) then all well and good, but stocks with low values and low volatility, well it's obvious isn't it. So checked other platforms, checked idea of live charts and buying elsewhere which doesn't seem to be possible (some only offer crypto for crypto and coinbase has reputational and speed issues it seems) so this seems to be the insurmountable problem. When I write this I sound so ridiculous, if it had been so easy everyone would be making fortunes 'swing' trading as I find the mechanics of prediction so obvious it's laughable, obviously then they will design a barrier. I am, by the way, massively risk averse hence leveraged trading is just not an option. I looked at fees and 'spread' (in my terms, the disparity between live chart buy and sell prices and platform or broker prices and fees) across all available vehicles to no avail, being in the U.K. some platforms are not available but I assume they would be the same (Webull etc). So, my thanks to anyone who read all of this absolute amateur nonsense and if anyone managed to and were so kind as to reply saying 'Yes you are an idiot and a waste of our experience and time' this would be appreciated so that I could close my file on 'swing trading' as a possibility of making additional income. My sincere thanks, it is not pleasant, but necessary to reveal myself as a complete idiot publicly on a forum to gain knowledge.

Answer:

Yes 😜 and No. 😁

Welcome to T2W @Rowtheboat , where the all the best idiots hang out.

As you rightly observe, if it were that easy, everyone would be rich already.
But hang in there, you're on the right track, just have some more learning to do yet.
There's a few of us here, doing exactly what interests you, and doing rather well at it too boot.
So, don't despair and talk to us for a bit of support on reaching your goals.

As you've discovered, etoro ain't the route to follow, as their spread will absorb much of the normal swings in price, which results in you making a lot more money for them than for yourself. Doable, but there are better platforms offering more equitable terms and spreads.

Swing trading won't result in great riches quickly, but you can make very good returns on even modest investments with relatively little risk to your invested capital with patience and diligence.

Reading your post above, I think you probably have plenty of both, so join in the fun and enjoy the ride.


MOC.

 

[1nvest]

A Good Day to you all. I am new to all of this and will come directly to the issue for me: I am investigating online trading as an option, 'swing' or 'day' trading interests me, I have used online an online platform (etoro) in 'demo' mode and taught myself very successfully. I was happy and confident with this stage of the learning process, the mechanics of trading the 'swing' and thought that being over sixty years old and a critical sceptic from my forty plus years of self employment and life's complex game of monetary musical chairs, I would look at the actuality in numbers. Now I chose crypto currencies as a target because they are highly volatile so plenty of swings. Insurmountable problem. The actual chart values top and bottom per 'swing' are massively different to the offered buy and sell prices on the platform, the platform (etoro) has to make money for sure, but in buying Etherium for example the differential is so great that one seems to be unable to make any real gains, buying price is $30 above spot, selling price also significantly below spot, apologies if my terms are incorrect I am not literate in terms yet. Now this 'Spread'(is that the term)? by the platform is only such on tradable 'stuff' so seemingly to block activity and encourage only 'hold' positions. Yes I could trade semi obscure Chinese manufacturers or Gold mining stocks where the 'spread' is negligible, the actual price buy and sell pretty well match the spot live prices but then the gain is so small you would need a very large investment to make gains. If I were to trade crypto with £2000/£5000 'bank' with swings of regular double digit percentage points and high initial prices (Etherium was the experiment) then all well and good, but stocks with low values and low volatility, well it's obvious isn't it. So checked other platforms, checked idea of live charts and buying elsewhere which doesn't seem to be possible (some only offer crypto for crypto and coinbase has reputational and speed issues it seems) so this seems to be the insurmountable problem. When I write this I sound so ridiculous, if it had been so easy everyone would be making fortunes 'swing' trading as I find the mechanics of prediction so obvious it's laughable, obviously then they will design a barrier. I am, by the way, massively risk averse hence leveraged trading is just not an option. I looked at fees and 'spread' (in my terms, the disparity between live chart buy and sell prices and platform or broker prices and fees) across all available vehicles to no avail, being in the U.K. some platforms are not available but I assume they would be the same (Webull etc). So, my thanks to anyone who read all of this absolute amateur nonsense and if anyone managed to and were so kind as to reply saying 'Yes you are an idiot and a waste of our experience and time' this would be appreciated so that I could close my file on 'swing trading' as a possibility of making additional income. My sincere thanks, it is not pleasant, but necessary to reveal myself as a complete idiot publicly on a forum to gain knowledge.

I agree with Master of Coin. you should certainly look at the spread, which is the right term and what other providers are like. Its highly likely however they wouldn't be too dissimilar
So another other option is choose another instrument. you've chosen crypto, but if you chose say an index which has enough volatility but due to being hugely traded, the spread is significantly less.
the other thing is to cut your teeth as it were on the longer time frames first. that would certainly be my advice. start slow, and then gradually move down if you really wanted to. but i'd still be looking to be in a trade for a few days minimum

 

[Rowtheboat]

Well. idiots would dive straight in and pay the consequences, so by doing some research and using a demo you've avoided that moniker I think.
Regarding yourself as 'massively risk averse' and thinking about swing trading cryptos? That's contradictory. (maybe you're more of an oxymoron!). You need to rethink your approach and starting point.

Wonderful, I do love the idea of being the embodiment of an 'oxymoron'. Now, 'massively risk averse' does not mean I do not see the necessity of risk (my forty years in business has been in a sector which is tremendously risky, capital intensive and very highly regulated with serious government department compliance enforcement) for gain, I like to know the risks and mitigate, but your point is well made. I was not intending to trade for large gains, I have followed swings up and down watching hourly charts, ten minute charts, learned the alchemy of moving averages, the MACD, Volume, Candlesticks, you get the idea here. I felt that I was getting 4% gains on each 'trade' as an average (but only on chart live prices, not offered buy and sell) I was delighted at the simplicity. It was of course my own simplicity. I fully accept your advise of rethinking my approach and so for my amusement I have discovered (immediately after making a fool of myself on the forum) that I can execute a trade at a price I fix, if of course I can get it, and with the clear understanding that I will only get that price when it has fallen to match in the live market. I shall see if this is of use, though it doesn't allow me to pick the 'bottom' of a swing, Hmm, indeed, as you also said "rethink your........... starting point" My thanks for you response, it was both kind, blunt and humorous.

 

[Rufus_Leakey]

A Good Day to you all. I am new to all of this and will come directly to the issue for me: I am investigating online trading as an option, 'swing' or 'day' trading interests me, I have used online an online platform (etoro) in 'demo' mode and taught myself very successfully. I was happy and confident with this stage of the learning process, the mechanics of trading the 'swing' and thought that being over sixty years old and a critical sceptic from my forty plus years of self employment and life's complex game of monetary musical chairs, I would look at the actuality in numbers. Now I chose crypto currencies as a target because they are highly volatile so plenty of swings. Insurmountable problem. The actual chart values top and bottom per 'swing' are massively different to the offered buy and sell prices on the platform, the platform (etoro) has to make money for sure, but in buying Etherium for example the differential is so great that one seems to be unable to make any real gains, buying price is $30 above spot, selling price also significantly below spot, apologies if my terms are incorrect I am not literate in terms yet. Now this 'Spread'(is that the term)? by the platform is only such on tradable 'stuff' so seemingly to block activity and encourage only 'hold' positions. Yes I could trade semi obscure Chinese manufacturers or Gold mining stocks where the 'spread' is negligible, the actual price buy and sell pretty well match the spot live prices but then the gain is so small you would need a very large investment to make gains. If I were to trade crypto with £2000/£5000 'bank' with swings of regular double digit percentage points and high initial prices (Etherium was the experiment) then all well and good, but stocks with low values and low volatility, well it's obvious isn't it. So checked other platforms, checked idea of live charts and buying elsewhere which doesn't seem to be possible (some only offer crypto for crypto and coinbase has reputational and speed issues it seems) so this seems to be the insurmountable problem. When I write this I sound so ridiculous, if it had been so easy everyone would be making fortunes 'swing' trading as I find the mechanics of prediction so obvious it's laughable, obviously then they will design a barrier. I am, by the way, massively risk averse hence leveraged trading is just not an option. I looked at fees and 'spread' (in my terms, the disparity between live chart buy and sell prices and platform or broker prices and fees) across all available vehicles to no avail, being in the U.K. some platforms are not available but I assume they would be the same (Webull etc). So, my thanks to anyone who read all of this absolute amateur nonsense and if anyone managed to and were so kind as to reply saying 'Yes you are an idiot and a waste of our experience and time' this would be appreciated so that I could close my file on 'swing trading' as a possibility of making additional income. My sincere thanks, it is not pleasant, but necessary to reveal myself as a complete idiot publicly on a forum to gain knowledge.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I can think of something that will help.

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[Rowtheboat]

Answer:

Yes 😜 and No. 😁

Welcome to T2W @Rowtheboat , where the all the best idiots hang out.

As you rightly observe, if it were that easy, everyone would be rich already.
But hang in there, you're on the right track, just have some more learning to do yet.
There's a few of us here, doing exactly what interests you, and doing rather well at it too boot.
So, don't despair and talk to us for a bit of support on reaching your goals.

As you've discovered, etoro ain't the route to follow, as their spread will absorb much of the normal swings in price, which results in you making a lot more money for them than for yourself. Doable, but there are better platforms offering more equitable terms and spreads.

Swing trading won't result in great riches quickly, but you can make very good returns on even modest investments with relatively little risk to your invested capital with patience and diligence.

Reading your post above, I think you probably have plenty of both, so join in the fun and enjoy the ride.


MOC.

I appreciate your reply, my 'day job' is taking up the next several days in their entirety so I will return to your reply later, I shall think over your words. I had rather given up with searching other platforms and a few seem to be unavailable in the U.K. I had rather begun to feel that the systems available were rigged to such an extent that it was not (to me at this stage of my understanding perhaps) possible to achieve anything but give up the profits I would make to the platforms spread, this certainly has been the case in 'virtual mode' with etoro, as you say, I make a nice though small profit for them rather than myself. Interesting.

 

[new_trader]

Welcome to T2W @Rowtheboat , where the all the best idiots hang out.

YOU ARE!

 

[crud-cutter]

Hi @Rowtheboat, You have been given the best advice already:
1. Look for trustworthy platforms with low spreads.
2. Use Limit orders where possible. Though the size of the spread will affect whether you get your order filled or not.
3. Look for other markets which have enough volatility for you, but have a more reasonable spread.

It isn't that all the platforms necessarily want to prevent you from making money. Though ones whose business model is to also act as a market maker certainly do. The others just want to make a profit as do their liquidity providers. Hence the thinner traded (volume wise) the market and the more volatile the market, the larger the spread will be.

A solution I used was to trade less volatile markets, but to only trade News events (to get the high Volatility) and to do this with a 'fixed spread' broker . This was Corespreads in my case - note I used their proprietary platform rather than their MT4 offering because it was faster to enter and manage trade with that.

However I now trade futures, so I don't know which Spreadbet/CFD Brokers are currently best for UK residents.