A Can of Worms . . .

[timsk]

To post or not to post, this is the question? To offer your ideas and comments or to apply a double layer of duck tape to to your bulletin board gob? It's all a question of effix.

My general philosophy has been to to offer a qualified opinion if I think it will enrich a thread in which I'm interested. By qualified, I mean 'it is my belief' or 'my understanding' or 'in my experience' that such and such is the case. I accept fully that my belief, understanding or experience about whatever the topic in question is, maybe very wide of the mark and totally divorced from the reality of the situation. One of the reasons I post my views is, in part, to test my own understandings and beliefs. If radically different replies are aired, I have an opportunity to refine and modify my own beliefs and understandings in a way which, hopefully, will move my trading forward. This is why I read these boards and post to them.

Recently, I contributed to a thread started by a new member and I duly posted my comments in the spirit outlined above. I was somewhat taken aback by the unusually acerbic response of a 'big name' member who felt compelled to intervene because, as I understand it, he felt my comments were grossly misleading. The possibility that I am wrong about something does not worry me unduly. As I say, it is an opportunity to learn. However, the idea that I am seen to perpetrate an unhelpful, misguided or inaccurate view about something, concerns me greatly. I do not want to mislead others. Very few members of T2W are qualified experts in trading in the way that, say Brett N. Steenbarger, Phd. is a qualified expert and Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioural Sciences at SUNY Upstate Medical University in Syracuse, NY.

So, what am I driving at here? Well, as readers of threads, how do we decide who to pay attention to and who to ignore? More importantly, IMO, how do we decide whether or not to post our views and opinions? One obvious answer is to only allow consistently profitable traders to post, once they've produced evidence of their abilities. This rule would bar me from posting, save to quiz the 'experts'. ("Yippee" I hear you cry!) The obvious drawback with this solution however, is that it means a mere dozen or so traders of the 45,000+ membership are really going to have their work cut out - big time. Double big time!

It all boils down to a question of ethics, I think. Bye the bye, all views and comments are welcome, be you a squillionnaire mega trader or a down and out, washed out, burned out and blown out has been!
Tim.

 

[LevII]

Bye the bye, all views and comments are welcome, be you a squillionnaire mega trader or a down and out, washed out, burned out and blown out has been!

Be nice to have some means of distinguishing one from the other.

 

[blackcab]

Open, public, global, anonymous discussion conducted online in text is a new phenomenon to which no person, society or culture has truly got used. This has been analysed and discussed in depth many times and you can read as much as you like about it with some judicious Googling.

I doubt that traders on a site like this are interested in pursuing the art of online debate (and I'm not either for the record even though I write like a pompous ****), so it makes sense IMHO to construct your own approach to boards and stick to it. That could mean taking a detached position and not taking unexpected replies personally, perhaps because you decide that as you know nothing about the other person, your interpretation of their apparent attack is likely to be wrong. It could also mean defending your emotional self by asking the questions and putting the opinions that you want to, but disguising your personality - creating a decoy persona; any attacks on you are attacks on the decoy and they miss the emotional target leaving you free to concentrate on the substance of the criticism as if it were directed at someone else. I find I learn more from reading arguments between others than between myself and another, for that reason.

I know nothing about dbphoenix or you but his directness in confronting your posts reminded me of my Dutch colleagues; they have such a direct approach that it can be unnerving to polite, evasive Britons, but when you recover from the shock, you can find it preferable. I would like a God figure to give me a blunt, direct, honest and accurate appraisal, but it would be an emotional shock. I can therefore not ask for or seek one, or I can ask for one in a tentative, disguised manner, or I can ask for one and put myself in a frame of mind that will accept the answer without shock.

Or I can not prepare myself, and not be aware that I have not prepared myself because I don't know that any preparation is necessary, and ask, and be blown apart by the response. That's what most people do (IMHO; I've no grounds for any of this other than my own experience).

By the way, this is unrelated but I just came across it: http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

 

[fxmarkets]

hmmm, well discussion is discussion, and I'm aware that with trading and discussion then because of the countless approaches and stages that we get exposed to or go through then a miriad of enthusiastic discussion on our part is put out, this being observed by those who have gone through that can "see" instantly the B.S or just what level a person is with it all.

remarks may come out, such as.

Absolute rubbish.
Total nonsense. and my favourite.
"This has got to be an absolute blunder" cheers soc.

This is just a question mark being put on our current view, thats all.

a challenge to or a check mark, this could be because we really need to perhaps have a rethink possibly or it could result in that our initial communication was crap, you'll always get some of that on the net, because body language and tone are missing from the act.

And keep in mind that you wouldn't or shouldnt be told (in your interests I think) simply do this or do that, not totally, absolutley with everything.

but to question your thinking? thats positive. and being open,

And if you think they need to rethink challenge their thinking but make sure there is a point to it other than, i'm hurt by that comment, i'll hurt you..

they are helping you.

 

[fxmarkets]

ohh your main point, the answer is we have to Differentiate for ourselves, then examine and test our current views, new ideas, to see if they are of further use to us.

And what a person may say or offer in the way of help to others, might be classed as pollution, even though they hold those beliefs views at the time and perhaps have done so for a long time, newbies need to be able to differentiate and people have to be open to remove the pollution from themselves. and evolve.

keep posting your views and opinions, if your lucky they might be tested challenged, opportunity for potential growth, providing you are o.k that an onlooker might begin the lesson with...

That is total nonsense.

and that could be the end of the lesson as well, but will people query on that alone, or do they expect ABC of trading school nursing.

 

[dbphoenix]

Since timsk has decided to make an issue out of my asking him what support he had for the opinions that he offered, perhaps it would be useful to compare what timsk thinks he wrote with what he actually wrote:

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showpost.php?p=233338&postcount=5

To begin with, where exactly are the "qualifiers" in this post? Is one left with the impression that exits are more important than entries? Is any support whatsoever provided for this assertion?

One needn't provide brokerage statements in order to demonstrate that he is qualified to offer an opinion. However, if one offers an opinion with no mention of the fact that he is not a trader nor has he reached the point where he can show consistent profitability, etc, then he should not be offended if he is asked to support whatever opinion he offers. If he is so easily offended, then perhaps he should consider his posts more carefully before clicking Submit.

--Db

 

[Chicken Curry]

To post or not to post, this is the question?

I disagree with this.

One does not have to seriously question oneself or anyone else about whether or not they wish to post on T2W. If you feel you have something to say just fire away and get it off your chest. It may be valid commentary or it may be garbage and you might get shot down in flames.

But who the hell cares anyway ?

Life goes on regardless.

I think it a sorry state of affairs when a thread is started in order to complain about people who complain about you.

Tedium unlimited !!!!!!!!!!!!.... enough of this before I bore myself to sleep.

Better not to think and ponder too much Tim, just shrug off adverse remarks and move on, as Mr Blair is keen on saying.

 

[pogle]

Tim,

Keep posting.

If a reader comes here expecting to be told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then (s)he is in for a sharp awakening when he encounters the markets for real. The reader will have to make judgments for themselves as to what is worthwhile and what is not; if they cannot do so then they are in the wrong game and the sooner they find out the better. It may be a harsh lesson and it may cost them some money but it is one they need to learn.

I treat all the opinion and advice on this and other sites as worth exactly what I pay for it, i.e. nothing. I take opinion and advice here; apply it to what I see when I encounter the markets and decide on its validity or otherwise.

There is a problem with malicious people on sites such as T2W deliberately misleading people. It is unfortunate but again, I think that a reader needs to sort the wheat from the chaff themselves otherwise they are going to get nowhere.

This is my opinion. It is worth exactly what you paid for it.

pogle

 

[dick_dastardly]

You can learn from someone who isn't an expert.

After all,

the best people to teach us good manners are those that lack them.

dd

 

[ZDO]

Even though ‘it’s a pretty good post that’s better than no post at all’- I urge you to keep posting.
Keep bringing your quick, well intentioned replies to newby and oldster queries and posts.

Using just a tiny bit of posters’ prose, some of the more prolific T2W posters have a tendency to JUDGEMENTALLY PROJECT personality and character traits onto their non pundit peers*. Fortunately, in these ‘virtual’ conversations, this reveals much about their motives and personality disorders. Unfortunately, their replies carry an equal quantity of ‘assumptions’ and their actual contribution usually takes the line of thought in the thread no further than yours did… ie no one can be expected to even begin to truly qualify each thought posted – even dissertations don’t really accomplish that.
"Research and assumptions are easily interchangable…"

All the best,

zdo

*Yes that’s right, I used the word ‘peers’. Wise ones who don’t like the company simply leave rather than waste everyones’ time judging.

 

[TWI]

When you start making money you will not give a t*ss what anyone else on here thinks. If people did not have different opinions then we wouldnt really have a market would we.

 

[CJIA]

When you start making money you will not give a t*ss what anyone else on here thinks. If people did not have different opinions then we wouldnt really have a market would we.

Hear Hear

 

[starspacer]

To post or not to post, this is the question? Tim.

For every trade, there is an exactly opposing trade.

For every buyer who thinks Google is worth $400, there is a seller who thinks it is not worth $400.

Who is right?

The one who makes the money.

Whether you call that luck, skill, good judgement, astrology, entrail forecasting or whatever, it is the one who makes the money who is right.

So, if you are making money timsk, I want to hear your comments. If you are not making money, I want to hear why you aren't. And if I can help, then I will. If you don't post, how can anyone help?

Oh, and another thing to some other members, be they Dutch, American, Iranian or whoever, politeness and courtesy costs nothing. Please don't spit vitriol. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry

 

[Charlton]

To post or not to post, this is the question? To offer your ideas and comments or to apply a double layer of duck tape to to your bulletin board gob? It's all a question of effix.

My general philosophy has been to to offer a qualified opinion if I think it will enrich a thread in which I'm interested. By qualified, I mean 'it is my belief' or 'my understanding' or 'in my experience' that such and such is the case. I accept fully that my belief, understanding or experience about whatever the topic in question is, maybe very wide of the mark and totally divorced from the reality of the situation. One of the reasons I post my views is, in part, to test my own understandings and beliefs. If radically different replies are aired, I have an opportunity to refine and modify my own beliefs and understandings in a way which, hopefully, will move my trading forward. This is why I read these boards and post to them.

Recently, I contributed to a thread started by a new member and I duly posted my comments in the spirit outlined above. I was somewhat taken aback by the unusually acerbic response of a 'big name' member who felt compelled to intervene because, as I understand it, he felt my comments were grossly misleading. The possibility that I am wrong about something does not worry me unduly. As I say, it is an opportunity to learn. However, the idea that I am seen to perpetrate an unhelpful, misguided or inaccurate view about something, concerns me greatly. I do not want to mislead others. Very few members of T2W are qualified experts in trading in the way that, say Brett N. Steenbarger, Phd. is a qualified expert and Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioural Sciences at SUNY Upstate Medical University in Syracuse, NY.

So, what am I driving at here? Well, as readers of threads, how do we decide who to pay attention to and who to ignore? More importantly, IMO, how do we decide whether or not to post our views and opinions? One obvious answer is to only allow consistently profitable traders to post, once they've produced evidence of their abilities. This rule would bar me from posting, save to quiz the 'experts'. ("Yippee" I hear you cry!) The obvious drawback with this solution however, is that it means a mere dozen or so traders of the 45,000+ membership are really going to have their work cut out - big time. Double big time!

It all boils down to a question of ethics, I think. Bye the bye, all views and comments are welcome, be you a squillionnaire mega trader or a down and out, washed out, burned out and blown out has been!
Tim.

Timsk

I see from the later message from DB that the New member you referred to was myself in my thread about Entry strategies. I am grateful to you for your advice and agreed with you later in the thread that exits and trading plans are as important within a trade as the entry. I am also grateful to Db for his contributions.

I feel strongly that you should post your views and opinions. It is up to the rest of us to decide for ourselves whether they provide value in our own trading situation. The same applies when we evaluate any book, seminar or system. We need to test its efficacy within our personal circumstances.

Wrong advice can also be useful, provided we test it out, because it forces us to question, challenge and analyse why we think it is wrong. This kind of open debate on this site helps us to learn.

It would be sad if we were limited to hearing the advice from only proven experts.

As long as the comments are given in a constructive way they should be welcome, so keep them coming Timsk.

Charlton

 

[timsk]

Timsk

I see from the later message from DB that the New member you referred to was myself in my thread about Entry strategies. I am grateful to you for your advice and agreed with you later in the thread that exits and trading plans are as important within a trade as the entry. I am also grateful to Db for his contributions.

I feel strongly that you should post your views and opinions. It is up to the rest of us to decide for ourselves whether they provide value in our own trading situation. The same applies when we evaluate any book, seminar or system. We need to test its efficacy within our personal circumstances.

Wrong advice can also be useful, provided we test it out, because it forces us to question, challenge and analyse why we think it is wrong. This kind of open debate on this site helps us to learn.

It would be sad if we were limited to hearing the advice from only proven experts.

As long as the comments are given in a constructive way they should be welcome, so keep them coming Timsk.

Charlton

Hi Charlton,
I don't know whether or not you enjoy a profession outside of trading but, if you do, then I can only assume it's within the diplomatic corp!

As Dbp has observed, it is obvious that although you are new to T2W, you are not new to trading. Any anxiety that I may have felt over the possibility of misleading you in my post on your thread, has been totally quashed by your subsequent contributions.

Having said that, the intention and purpose of this thread was to try and focus on how to distinguish between BBB (bulletin board bluster) and real wisdom, gained from knowledge and experience. Quite deliberately, I did not specify your name, your thread or Dbp when I opened this one. Although a catalyst for this thread, my hope was, that individual personalities would not be the subject of it. Clearly, I have failed in this endeavour!

To pose a question as you did, could not be construed as forwarding an opinion. However, the person that dares to answer, is liable to come under close scrutiny. And quite right too. If you don't believe your own posts and aren't prepared to stand by them - don't post. The grey area, as I outlined in my introduction, is when someone says what they honestly believe to be the case, but could be very wide of the mark. Should they post or not post? From the replies thus far and, more especially from PM's that I've received, the view is 'post and be damned!' It's the reader's responsibility to sort the wheat from the chaff.

To clarify, I had hoped this thread would address whether or not it is desirable for anyone and everyone to post on any aspect of trading, regardless of their knowledge, skill level and experience. It is unfortunate, IMO, that some posters have chosen to focus on a personal agenda, rather than on the ' big picture' that I had hoped this thread would address. I don't doubt that these same subscribers will accuse me of failing in this regard as much as anyone else. In the words of Ms Gaynor, "I will survive".

Charlton - I look forward to more contributions from you in the future.
Tim.

 

[starspacer]

Oh, and another thing to some other members, be they Dutch, American, Iranian or whoever, politeness and courtesy costs nothing.

Dear uncouths, as part one in your education of etiquette, please learn the following:

http://www.elevatorrules.com/rules/going-one-floor/http://www.elevatorrules.com/rules


More lessons will follow according to level of demand

 

[Splitlink]

You can learn from someone who isn't an expert.

After all,

the best people to teach us good manners are those that lack them.

dd

I disagree. Your kids will learn from your manners, good or bad. A person already knows what are good manners, or not, if he can differenciate between them

Unfortunately, these threads do, quite often, deteriorate into bad manners on the part of those who do consider themselves to be experts, both as traders and as writers of prose and they use the latter as a means to belittle the target poster into shutting up and going away.

To be clear, I do not include db in this. I have disagreed with him on some points but have never found him wanting in the way he has answered my posts.

Split

 

[TraderPattern]

This is a very stimulating and illuminating thread on the value of posters. Well done, it coincides with my thoughts and viewpoints on life the universe and trading.

 

[peto]

This is a very stimulating and illuminating thread on the value of posters. Well done, it coincides with my thoughts and viewpoints on life the universe and trading.

I've found a couple of similar postings from you made this afternoon, and one where you rated a article as 'poor' because it differed from your "thoughts and viewpoints". I would have thought that articles which coincide with ones views, whilst comfortable to read, are ultimately a waste of time. Perhaps it is views which challenge your own, and result in seeing a problem from a new perspective or solving it in another way, that ultimately have more value?
pete

 

[TraderPattern]

Dear Peto

Thank you for your immature post. You are entitled to your freedom of speech, of this I will concur.

But you are misled in your conclusions.

Thanks,
TraderPattern