Indicators Or Price

dbphoenix said:
The trader who enters off a 1m or 2m chart will beat you to the entry regardless of whether he plots a stochastic or the RSI (etc) or not. By focusing on the bar, you are in effect making it into an indicator and removing yourself from the price action per se.

Trading according to where price is going to be n minutes from now is not particularly logical. On the other hand, if one enters when price breaks through some level or makes a new high or whatever, then whether it does so an hour from now, or five minutes, or ten seconds is irrelevant: one enters when price says so.

Db
Click to expand...
While someone trading a 1 min chart may well beat a 2 min chart trader to entry (apprciate we're at an extreme here) they will also be out sooner, for less. This quite begs the question when comapring timeframes with a greater delta that the same chart setups occur - they don't always, or very often at all actually.

Your chosen timeframe determines your focus and your context. A trader on a 5 min chart is trading in reality not only in a different context, but effectively a totally different instrument to one trading dailies.

You're spot on with emphasising the need to trade what is happening (now) rather than entering on what you think might happen and this all comes down to probabilities - which I'll get to later.

Timsk - working on your analysis. Should be ready later on tonight.
 
Morning, all.

I've deleted my swearing posts, so not to offend anyone.

Too much wine yesterday,...oops.

Ta ta.
 
The Degrees said:
While someone trading a 1 min chart may well beat a 2 min chart trader to entry (apprciate we're at an extreme here) they will also be out sooner, for less. This quite begs the question when comapring timeframes with a greater delta that the same chart setups occur - they don't always, or very often at all actually.

Not necessarily. The criteria for exit need not be the same as for entry. There's no need to exit as long as the trade is progressing satisfactorily, unless one is exiting according to targets (which may not be much of a reason, but that's another subject).

Your chosen timeframe determines your focus and your context. A trader on a 5 min chart is trading in reality not only in a different context, but effectively a totally different instrument to one trading dailies.

Same instrument but different viewpoint. Both are trading the same stock or ETF or whatever, but one is waiting longer for a trigger than the other. This does not mean, however, that Quickdraw is going to do any better. May do much worse.

You're spot on with emphasising the need to trade what is happening (now) rather than entering on what you think might happen and this all comes down to probabilities - which I'll get to later.

That wasn't the impression I intended to give. To the contrary, I place my order in advance and wait for price to come to me.
Click to expand...

Db
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Degrees
While someone trading a 1 min chart may well beat a 2 min chart trader to entry (apprciate we're at an extreme here) they will also be out sooner, for less. This quite begs the question when comapring timeframes with a greater delta that the same chart setups occur - they don't always, or very often at all actually.

Not necessarily. The criteria for exit need not be the same as for entry. There's no need to exit as long as the trade is progressing satisfactorily, unless one is exiting according to targets (which may not be much of a reason, but that's another subject).

Your chosen timeframe determines your focus and your context. A trader on a 5 min chart is trading in reality not only in a different context, but effectively a totally different instrument to one trading dailies.

Same instrument but different viewpoint. Both are trading the same stock or ETF or whatever, but one is waiting longer for a trigger than the other. This does not mean, however, that Quickdraw is going to do any better. May do much worse.

You're spot on with emphasising the need to trade what is happening (now) rather than entering on what you think might happen and this all comes down to probabilities - which I'll get to later.

That wasn't the impression I intended to give. To the contrary, I place my order in advance and wait for price to come to me.


Db

As it is the weekend, I have a little time to spare....;)

I disagree with both of you but there again you are limited to viewing all of this in net present time and not in net future time as is required for consistent results.

It is like crossing the road when there is traffic.

You don't blunder across the road without looking...you look to your right and left and right again and left again if necessary before you commit to actually step across.

Why ?

You want to make sure there is not a vehicle coming in your direction.

It is about anticipation.

Anticipation is the operative word.

What are you doing when you are looking left and right, what ?

You are looking to see if the road is clear, and if it is not clear, you are guesstimating the arrival of the vehicle and deciding whether it is far away enough not to pose a threat.

The event of whether it poses a threat or not is known in advance, but there again only to pedestrians who are able to look and to assess time / distance / movement.

Therefore the skilled and sensible pedestrian knows...can assess...the outcome in advance.....:LOL:

The unskilled pedestrian is not concerned with time / distance or movement.

The unskilled pedestrian can do one of two things, (rather like what you two are doing).

He can wait until the road is totally clear of traffic before he crosses...OR...he can blunder across without looking.

Both of these decision are in net present time and not in net future time. which in trading effectively, is what is really needed.

You cannot complain I do not tell you everything.
 
SOCRATES said:
He can wait until the road is totally clear of traffic before he crosses...OR...he can blunder across without looking.
Both of these decision are in net present time and not in net future time. which in trading effectively, is what is really needed.
You cannot complain I do not tell you everything
Click to expand...

Hi Albert,
I like the analogy about pedestrians crossing a road and can see nothing wrong in waiting until the road is totally clear of traffic before crossing. Of the two choices offered, this is the one favoured by most I suspect. If applied to the markets, the result should be just as fruitful - I would have thought.

As for telling us everything, your new signature suggests otherwise!;)
Tim.
 
SOCRATES said:
It is like crossing the road when there is traffic.

You don't blunder across the road without looking...you look to your right and left and right again and left again if necessary before you commit to actually step across.

Why ?

You want to make sure there is not a vehicle coming in your direction.

It is about anticipation.
Click to expand...

would you by chance be alluding to another timeframe and the expected/anticipated trend/price movement in that timeframe, so when being aware of said juggerynut, we can avoid being run over by it. is that it?
 
SOCRATES said:
I disagree with both of you but there again you are limited to viewing all of this in net present time and not in net future time as is required for consistent results.

The unskilled pedestrian can do one of two things, (rather like what you two are doing).
He can wait until the road is totally clear of traffic before he crosses...OR...he can blunder across without looking.
Click to expand...

Since you don't understand what's being said, or what either of us does, you're not in the best position to disagree.

The entry decision is based on what one expects to happen. To enter for no other reason than that it seems like a good idea at the time is not prudent trading.

Keep trying, Albert.

Db
 
dbphoenix said:
Since you don't understand what's being said, or what either of us does, you're not in the best position to disagree.

The entry decision is based on what one expects to happen. To enter for no other reason than that it seems like a good idea at the time is not prudent trading.

Keep trying, Albert.

Db
Click to expand...

No it is not. I do not understand why it is you persist in trying to dumb down people here.

It is not about what you expect to happen.

It is about knowing in advance what is going to happen which is very different. I keep saying everything is decided in advance and everything is known in advance, but if you persist in following ideas which are anchored to mechanical stuff then that must be the reason why you have opinions such as the ones you do.
 
timsk said:
Hi Albert,
I like the analogy about pedestrians crossing a road and can see nothing wrong in waiting until the road is totally clear of traffic before crossing. Of the two choices offered, this is the one favoured by most I suspect. If applied to the markets, the result should be just as fruitful - I would have thought.

As for telling us everything, your new signature suggests otherwise!;)
Tim.
Click to expand...

Yes I altered my signature because my previous one aggravated the majority.
As you know very well the majority here are allowed to run riot. The absolute minority is penalised. Then no one benefits.
 
Lightning McQueen said:
would you by chance be alluding to another timeframe and the expected/anticipated trend/price movement in that timeframe, so when being aware of said juggerynut, we can avoid being run over by it. is that it?
Click to expand...

No, I am not alluding to timeframes because that is mechanical thinking.

I am alluding to the identification of intent, hidden or otherwise, and harmonising with it seamlessly, and in advance of price development in sync with that intent.
 
the blades said:
Absolutely. Unfortunately, everything about nothing;)

UTB
Click to expand...

Listen Sheffield....You cannot complain because always I am very kind and patient with you etc., but those who understand, do so immediately, and those who do not, never do.

Besides, you know who it is I post for, and it is not for those who do not understand that they do not understand....:LOL:

Sometimes I post for those who do not understand but want to persuade the newbies that they do, and when I rattle the cage with my little stick as I walk by...well...you know...Zupcon appears with the rule book in defence of the majority.

Some day he also will finally learn.

Kind Regards.
 
It is not about what you expect to happen.

It is about knowing in advance what is going to happen which is very different.

Socrates I agree with you on this comment. Many people enter the market based on a predefined criteria, with no real idea of market direction and why. Once price is completely understood, its structure and movement , then your entry will be based on this fact .

I think there is a huge difference between the two methods. The second one allowing you more control over your decision and why you made that decision in the first place. Intuitive trading takes on a whole new meaning.
 
SOCRATES said:
No it is not. I do not understand why it is you persist in trying to dumb down people here.

It is not about what you expect to happen.

It is about knowing in advance what is going to happen which is very different. I keep saying everything is decided in advance and everything is known in advance, but if you persist in following ideas which are anchored to mechanical stuff then that must be the reason why you have opinions such as the ones you do.
Click to expand...

Anticipate, expect, whatever. Don't quibble, Albert. And your insistence that this is "anchored to mechanical stuff" simply reinforces the fact that you don't understand what I'm talking about and never have.

Parroting Tom Wiliams is not enough. Eventually one must grapple with the "how", something which you, even after your thousands of posts, have yet to be able to do (some would say "willing" to do, but if you aren't able, the willing part is moot).

Cryptic clues provide a cloak of seeming profundity, but they also disguise shallow understanding, if any understanding is there at all.

Db
 
everything is decided in advance and everything is known in advance
 

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dbphoenix said:
Anticipate, expect, whatever. Don't quibble, Albert. And your insistence that this is "anchored to mechanical stuff" simply reinforces the fact that you don't understand what I'm talking about and never have.

Parroting Tom Wiliams is not enough. Eventually one must grapple with the "how", something which you, even after your thousands of posts, have yet to be able to do (some would say "willing" to do, but if you aren't able, the willing part is moot).

Cryptic clues provide a cloak of seeming profundity, but they also disguise shallow understanding, if any understanding is there at all.

Db
Click to expand...

Parroting Williams ? You must be JOKING musn't you ?

That is what you do and Sebastian Manby does, not me !

In every other respect all you post above is kindergarten stuff as well, for beginners.

The tragedy is you like to try to dumb down everyone you can.

But not with me you can't. I will simply not let you and from a great height above you I drop it when it pleases me, and that is what you do not like.

You ought to curb your ego, and if you did, you would be able to cross the glasswall that separates us. I cannot do it for you. You have to push your own envelope on your own, but one day...and I cannot tell whether it is weeks, months or years you may wake up. The chances are that with your current hobby horses you never will.
 
laptop1 said:
Before I move on to price only trading, lets give volume a mention and how to use it as a leading indicator

Cumulative depth volume can be uses as a leading indicator... Most people don't know about it. if one side of the market is larger, that is where price has travel. if there are more sellers price will go up, more buyers price will go down. Otherwise the minority of people couldn't be making money off a majority, the majority always has to be on the wrong side Yet there's still so many people believing high volume at the ask means price goes down and vice versa.…

The market always follows the path of the most volume, in order to make a minority profit from the majority
smart players knows this. The same with stops they like to target them. The smart players will load their side of the market with fake volume, to further amplify this effect. As price comes closer, the volume will get less from the high ask volume, it then gets entered in the opposite direction with market orders! The effect of this needs no explaining more to come...;)
Click to expand...

NOT SO.

If what you say is the case, then all of this could be programmed as a series of "rule sets" as they are known in Pod G Logic.

The fact is they cannot.

You are doing a disservice to newbies and gullible people here.

You may not be doing it deliberately, but nevertheless you are doing it.

It may be as a consequence of that which you personally persuade yourself to believe, and it is utter nonsense, and what is more, dangerous nonsense.:eek:


 
SOCRATES said:
No it is not. I do not understand why it is you persist in trying to dumb down people here.

It is not about what you expect to happen.

It is about knowing in advance what is going to happen which is very different. I keep saying everything is decided in advance and everything is known in advance, but if you persist in following ideas which are anchored to mechanical stuff then that must be the reason why you have opinions such as the ones you do.
Click to expand...

Socrates,
when the knowing in advance starts. Obviously not before one comes to the side of the road and observes the traffic for a while. otherwise why bother looking left , right and left again. You would simply know what is coming and how far they are and the time left for you the cross the road. So using your road crossing analogy it can be argued that nothing is known in advance.
regards,
 
SOCRATES said:
Yes I altered my signature because my previous one aggravated the majority.
/QUOTE]

A man named Albert calling himself Socrates paraphrasing an aphorism of Pythagoras!

Tres drole!

Offer not your right hand easily to anyone.

This warns the disciple to keep his own counsel
and not offer wisdom and knowledge (his right hand)
to such as are incapable of appreciating them.
The hand here represents Truth, which raises those
who have fallen because of ignorance;
but as many of the unregenerate do not desire wisdom
they will cut off the hand
that is extended in kindness to them.
Time alone can effect the redemption
of the ignorant masses
Click to expand...
 
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