levelII vs Times and sales

fantastic

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Hi,

Would you say there is a difference between levelII data
and ( Times & Sales) data. I am a bit confused as some people
seem to imply that they are the same. I don't really want to
ask them about it :eek:
Is that the case? If not what are the differences?
 
depth is implied supply/demand, time&sales is the supply/demand.

Howver,lots of DOMs (depth ladders) let you know when someone is hitting a bid or lifting an offer
 
Would you say there is a difference between levelII data
and ( Times & Sales) data. I am a bit confused as some people
seem to imply that they are the same?
Hi fantastic,
In case you're not aware, in the main red panel at the top of the T2W page you'll see 'Traderpedia'. As the name suggests, it covers all the terms and jargon that traders use, often with detailed descriptions and examples. Here are links to 'Level II' and Time and sales' respectively:
Level II - Traderpedia
Time and sales - Traderpedia
Enjoy!
Tim.
 
Thanks for the links!

1. Would you say that time&sales are what you see happening between the bid and ask values in LevelII ?
I.e. time&sales are included in LevelII?

2. I am loking to some software with levelII and time&sales data.
Would you expect time&sales data to be delayed data compared to the levelII grid?
 
Thanks for the links!
1. Would you say that time&sales are what you see happening between the bid and ask values in LevelII ?
I.e. time&sales are included in LevelII?
2. I am loking to some software with levelII and time&sales data.
Would you expect time&sales data to be delayed data compared to the levelII grid?
Hi fantastic,
1. T&S show the actual trades, known as 'prints' that are transacted between buyer and seller. Level II shows all the prospective players in the game. Some may want to buy / sell at the prices advertised or maybe they just want you to think that they will transact at those prices but have no intention to do so. Reading the level II screen is tricky, requiring knowledge, experience and skill. To use an analogy - think of a race in the recent Olympic games. Before the start, the commentators go through the credentials and achievements of each athlete and, from this, sometimes we can stab a good guess at the likely medal winners. This is level II. Once the race has completed, the results are fact, they're 'printed' in black and white for all to see. Gold medal goes to . . . silver to . . . and bronze to . . . etc. This is T&S. If you're a footie fan, think of the strikers and defenders jostling for position just before a corner kick is taken. This is level II. Once the kick is taken, the ball is either cleared by the defenders or an attempt on goal is made by the strikers. The result is what it is. This is T&S.
2. Most (if not all) software companies that provide intra day data will offer both Level II and T&S. You'll probably have to pay extra for the former; the latter may well be included in the basic package. If you're paying for real time streaming data, then both Level II and T&S should be just that. Delayed intra day data is next to useless for intra day trading purposes. It may (and I stress 'may') be of use to the swing or position trader but even this is questionable as most (but not all) traders fall into one of two camps:
A. Daytraders who require bang up to the nano second accurate streaming real time data - both level II and T&S.
B. Swing traders and beyond who, for the most part, use end of day (E.o.D.) data.
If you're in camp B, then paying the additional premium for A is an unnecessary luxury you really don't need.
Clear as a clear thing?
;)
Tim.
 
Last edited:
You have clarified the matter.

On level II : shows the buying or selling intentions now.
On T&S : actual contracts exchanged few nano seconds ago

Say T&S shows that 50 contracts were on the ask, does it mean
- people were waiting on the bid and 50 offers to sell came in?

- how do one know who offered to sale these 50 contracts: one person or many people?
 
Hi fantastic,
I don't use level II so I'm not the best person to answer questions about it. Please take the comments below with a pinch of salt! Perhaps someone more qualified than me may answer your questions, in the meantime, I'll do my best . . .
On level II : shows the buying or selling intentions now.
Correct(ish). But remember the 'intentions' may be false ones. Distinguishing between genuine buyers / sellers and the fakers isn't at all easy, IMO.
On T&S : actual contracts exchanged few nano seconds ago
Correct.
Say T&S shows that 50 contracts were on the ask, does it mean - people were waiting on the bid and 50 offers to sell came in?
Sorry, I'm afraid I'm not clear what you're asking here! Remember that regardless of whether the transaction takes place at the bid or the offer, that there's always a buyer AND a seller.
- how do one know who offered to sale these 50 contracts: one person or many people?
One could hazard a guess based on size I suppose, but I don't really see the point. What matters is the effect that transactions have on price - do they cause price to rise, fall or remain unchanged? Cause and effect ; supply and demand.
Tim.
 
Say T&S shows that 50 contracts were on the ask, does it mean
- people were waiting on the bid and 50 offers to sell came in?

50 contracts traded at the ask are traders coming into the market to BUY; they are BUYING 50 contracts for the price that the market maker is ASKING for them (inevitably more than he will buy them for)

Similarly

50 contracts come through the T&S at the BID - a trader has come to to the market to SELL 50 contracts, and has sold them @ the price the market maker was BIDDING for them.

___________

If it helps, think about the terminology to "lift the offer" or to "hit the bid"...

"Lifting the offer" means coming to the market and buying immediately at the best available price, the lowest price the market makers are OFFERING the contracts for... buying like this is an increase in demand, and if done in enough size, will reduce the supply of offers enough to move the market up a tick or two. Thus buying at the offer "lifts" the prices up a bit.

On the other hand, "hitting the bid" is coming to the market and SELLING at the best price immediately available, the price that the market makers are BIDDING for them. Selling at the bid will reduce the remaining, and with the increase in supply, "hit" prices down a tick or two.

You might ask "why do people come straight to the market and buy at a higher price than they need to?" - Bear in mind futures are used for a whole host of reasons; A trader on a Hedge fund desk doesnt really care about a single tick or two, he is making a big play; BIDDING for contracts to buy instead of LIFTING THE OFFER gives him little change of getting filled in his order. Other traders are using futures to hedge some other trade, so what is important for them is that they GET FILLED, not so much about the price (additionally, any trades that are HEDGES are quite possibly intended to LOSE MONEY... )

If you're going to be using T&S and the DOM to trade futures, you should get an idea about dealing with size. "SIZE" refers to any bid or offer at any level in the DOM that is unusually large... it is usually one of the following:

1) Spoofing

This is an important think to look out for: if you see a particularly large bid or offer sitting in the DOM, and prices move towards it, watch what hapens to the order as the market starts to approach it. If the bid or offer immediately dissappears, its known as a "Spoof" - whoever had placed the bid did not genuinely mean to deal at the prices he was quoting, he only meant the market to believe that he did... it works like this:

I put a big offer in to sell and 4 or 5 levels above the best price in the market. I don't really want to sell the contracts, I just want to give the impression that there is supply at this level, which should act as resistance to prices moving further up. Other, usually less experienced traders, seeing this order, make the assumption that the order is genuine. To profit from it, they try to "step in front" of my offer, by offering to sell contracts at one tick lower. Their intention is to "step in front" of the queue, sell contracts to the market, and "lean on my size"- that is, they think that my offer will soak up all the demand to buy, act as resistance, and prices will tick down - they are "leaning" on my offer to push prices down. Once filled, they then place bids in below the price they offered at, and scalp a tick or two...


However: little do they know it is all a big con: as the price moves towards my offer, I discretely start BUYING contracts, at a mixture of the Bid and Offer. I accumulate a LONG position in the market, and start to add offers to sell ABOVE my "spoof"... if all has gone to plan, I should have bought some contracts from other traders who are trying to "lean on size" that I put in the market; they are now short, based on the assumption that some supply is coming and prices will tick down....

So, I pull it. I take my offer away from the market, leaving a shortage of supply. These traders, seeing that the order has disappeared, think "Oh sh!t; I'm short in a market that is going UP! BUY!! BUY!! BUY!! They look to close their positions quickly, buy BUYING contracts back at the offer price; if there are enough traders "spoofed", in addition to the regular flow of incoming orders, the additional buying should soak up all the offers to sell and "lift" prices...

...If I'm clever, I might have put my Spoof in a place where I think traders will be looking to sell anyway, and, seeing my offer of size, think "well, if prices trade through that offer, there must be alot of buying, so prices are probably going up, which means I'm wrong to be short, so I'll put my stop loss one tick behind it" - therefore, as I pull my Spoof, the subsequent buying takes prices over and above this "stop price", which triggers even more buying when the existing shorts look to cover their positions, adding to the upward pressure, and giving me a higher price to sell back all the contracts I am LONG with from sneakily buying them before I pulled my "spoof" :cheesy:

2) Genuine

If an order is genuine, and has been place by, say, a Bank for one if it's customers, the same offer isn't going to get pulled. So, as we get closer to the offer (in this case), we look to see if the order stays there when people start to lift it... the basic idea is that, if all of the sizeable offer is soaked up by market demand, one of two things can happen -

i - the demand for buying at the offer falls away. There aren't enough buyers coming into the market to soak up all the supply of the big offer, so it acts as resistance to prices moving higher - this is what the less experienced traders were expecting to happen in the "spoofing" example. With buyers at the current offer running out, market makers looking to OFFER contracts do so at a tick lower, in front of the genuine size offer, and prices move down (resistance in action).

ii - the demand doesn't fall away, there is enough demand to soak up all of the OFFERS @ SIZE... With all of the previous offers of supply exhausted, the thing to watch is any NEW offers coming into the market - additional offers will serve as further resistance to price ticking up; if they continue to turn up, eventually all of the demand will have been met, so the market starts to tick down again as demand falls away....

... However, the far more interesting scenario is when additional offers DONT appear in the DOM and BUYS still trickle through the T&S; imagine birthday cake at a kids party, split up into one 3/4 piece and 4 1/16 pieces. The OFFER @ SIZE is akin to the big piece of cake... once someone has eaten it all, and no more cake turns up, the remaining - hungry - kids will start to fight hand over fist for one of the few remaining slices; this can happen if prices "trade through size"... all of a sudden there are very little OFFERS of SUPPLY, and still there is a demand from buyers coming to the market. In this case, price can tick upwards one or two ticks as all the buyers sacrifice a tick for "a piece of the cake".

In addition to this, there are also "flippers" who quickly take OFFERS @ SIZE away and replace them with BIDS @ SIZE with the intention of "shaking out" alot of smaller players...and "stop hunting" where traders will continue to buy or sell contracts through a price which, they believe, if traded at will trigger further buys or sells into the market, and they join along for the ride.

The definition and descriptions of the phenomena I have descrbed here may differ from trader to trader, but the basics are all there. Having said all that, it is one thing to understand how they work on paper, another far far trickier thing to see it in action.

Hope some of the above is helpful.
 
fantastic,
Being able to explain some of the games and tactics that are played out on the level II screen as clearly and as articulately as MrGecko has done is impressive in itself. However, being able to react in real time to prices flashing across your screen is another ball game entirely. It would be quite wrong of me to try to put you off if your up for it, but the waters of the level II screen are grey and muddy and getting more so all the time to all but the most experienced of traders. Better to start with the T&S screen, IMO - at least you're looking at hard facts, actual 'prints' of real trades and then, once you're comfortable with that, add the level II screen further down the road. Just my 2p worth.
Tim.
 
I feel that having access to Level 2 is more and more important. Being able to see your position sitting in the order book, on the market depth of the stock gives you that piece of mind that you are not getting robbed with requotes or widening of spreads. I am moving away from Spreads and into CFDs, and have looked a few platforms. My cousin uses GNI which he recommends a lot, as it provides the level 2 info and transparancy that you need.
 
Hi Tim & MrGecko,

Thanks a lot for your answers :cheesy:
Tim: your advice about understanding the T&S first before levelII makes sense.
I have been looking into different software. When I watched the screens, they always seem to show bizarre things. I first phoned various "customer service" to ask about the anomalies I could see in their software... now I am here:cheesy:


Hope some of the above is helpful.

Very helpful (y).

T&S values at the ask show the BUYERS lifting the offer - made by the market makers?
Can these buyers shown on the T&S be market makers as well? :eek:

I had actually started to notice these big orders suddenly disappearing as if the buyer ( on the bid?) or seller ( on the ask?) had changed their mind at the last minute!

I am wondering:
what does it mean if, say the number of orders on the bid & ask do not change, but the T&S shows that many sales have taken place at the bid?

To clarify the bizarrery:

say at the start
bid column
n_orders bid_price
1 877.0
T&Sales :
n_contracts price bid/ask
0 877.0 ....

Then at the end
bid column
n_orders bid_price
1 877.0
T&Sales :
n_contracts price bid/ask
600 877.0 bid

How can these big sells go on and no market makers seem to have added at least 599 on the bid column.

While I am at it, I also noticed a case where:
- prices are increasing
- T&S show that a lot of sellers are coming in ( T&S contracts on the bid?)
are these sellers = market makers selling in a rising market?
I nearly argued with the ( now I realise !) poor software sales person
that, the T&S should show a LOT of buyers ( T&S contracts on the ask?), as the prices are increasing! :(

should one expect prices to keep increasing ( big volume + price up)
or prices to go down ( a lot of sales )?

May be I should phone up some of the sales/customer service people I have infuriated with my observations about their software!:innocent:
 
There are other aspects of trading which is far more important than order book analysis . VWAP codes and third party volume scalers have become so efficient and effective that recognising the AX is no longer an easy task. Even if you were to identify the AX you would still have to know where the overall market is heading for effective trading ,,

Thumb down here

Grey1
 
50 contracts traded at the ask are traders coming into the market to BUY; they are BUYING 50 contracts for the price that the market maker is ASKING for them (inevitably more than he will buy them for)

Similarly

50 contracts come through the T&S at the BID - a trader has come to to the market to SELL 50 contracts, and has sold them @ the price the market maker was BIDDING for them.

___________

MrGecko,

If only trading was that simple!

-----------------------------------------------------
COMMERCIALS - the major players

A commercial trader is any trader who deals in large quantities of contracts.
Commercial traders can trade in small lots and large lots.
Commercial traders behave differently on light volume days compared to heavy volume days.
Commercial traders behave differently when entering a trade compared to exiting a trade.

-----------------------------------------------------


-----------------------------------------------------
A million permutations

Combining the principles detailed in Rules of Logic, Occam's Law of Simplicity, Paretos Principle, Law of Large Numbers, Laws of Probability, and the Trading Rules, the methodology is simple. Select the "the vital few", ignore the "useful many" (jobbing), establish a method of classifying them into buying or selling, (laws of supply and demand) then assess which is the dominant side. Provides something manageable to work with. It identifies where the weight of money is going.
-----------------------------------------------------

Now fantastic, it's up to you to figure out wot's wot and wot's not. Stop asking silly questions....is the price going to go up or down...:rolleyes:
 
fantastic,

Grey1 and NT make important good points; there is a whole bunch more you should really have a firm grasp of in order to make use of the DOM + T&S effectively

watching the DOM and T&s is a skill that is useful to have, provided you know where and how to apply it. It's more prominent in some markets over others (my examples were w.r.t. the futures market - I have no clue what goes in over in equities), and even each contract has it's collection of players that have their own little idiosyncrasies.

I guess it depends on what type of trading you are looking to do, on which type of product. Trading solely by the DOM + T&S can be done in certain contracts, but it takes thousands of hours to get the hang of. It is not the "be all and end end all". Far from it.
 
Hi,



Now fantastic, it's up to you to figure out wot's wot and wot's not. Stop asking silly questions....is the price going to go up or down...:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the stupid question:eek:. I should have asked what, in your views, is the most likely thing to happen in this type of situation...

MrGecko:)thumbsup:): I am at the moment just trying to make sense of the DOM+T&S. It just looks so complex at first. But now the more I watch it and the more there seems to be a kind of logic in it.
I am looking to trade the news, hence DOM+T&S.
 
Sorry for the stupid question:eek:. I should have asked what, in your views, is the most likely thing to happen in this type of situation...
There's no such thing as a silly question fantastic - N_T was quite wrong to make that comment. It puts off others from asking their questions for fear of embarrassment. It also undermines the ethos of the site which is to provide mutual help and support to all and sundry - be they the greenest of newbie's or old pro's. The only question that deserve ribbing or ignoring are ones where it's clear the poster hasn't made the slightest effort to answer it for themselves. Ask anything you like.
Tim.
 
fantastic,

Grey1 and NT make important good points; there is a whole bunch more you should really have a firm grasp of in order to make use of the DOM + T&S effectively

watching the DOM and T&s is a skill that is useful to have, provided you know where and how to apply it. It's more prominent in some markets over others (my examples were w.r.t. the futures market - I have no clue what goes in over in equities), and even each contract has it's collection of players that have their own little idiosyncrasies.

I guess it depends on what type of trading you are looking to do, on which type of product. Trading solely by the DOM + T&S can be done in certain contracts, but it takes thousands of hours to get the hang of. It is not the "be all and end end all". Far from it.


I've already repped you, Gekko. Two great posts.
 
Thanks Tim. :)
I imagine N_T felt annoyed : these must be really obvious for someone who's not new to it.
It would have been nice if N_T had bothered answering the questions though!;)

Anyway, on friday put my first news trade ( 2 trades: just before and few seconds after).
Tried the bor futures on nonfarm payroll: the DOM+T&S started to look funny at around 13:23. Didn't understand as the news were due at 30. At 13:26 started to go crazy , at 13:28 I had to get in as it was too obvious, news out at 13:30 - it was GREAT- at 13:30:05 I was in profit. Reversed the position and doubled it on noticing another type of anomaly, which turned out to be a top, and exited on 1/3 of the retracement. 2 good trades.

I guess asking/formulating the questions allowed me to have a better understanding of what the DOM+T&S say.(y)

I am now going to have a look to the volume + price thread, as it is linked to the T&S. :cheesy:
 
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