Currensee

What are you thoughts on using Currensee as a platform for trade copying; or to sell your systems there.

Pros/Cons are all welcome.

Here is my take on Currensee:
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If you are selling system signals; you should consider Currensee to sell your signals instead of ZuluTrade. You get better compensation; and the site is more professional. I did open a test account (live acc) with Currensee and followed some systems; to see how things works. I was impressed by the mechanics of the trading copying.

The ranking of traders on the leaderboard are misleading though. It is recommended you do your own due diligence before following anyone.

There are also few problems with the traders leaderboard performance stats:
1. equity curves are for closed equity only. Open positions are not included. I downloaded the list of trades for few fellows; and draw the equity curve; and large drawdowns shows up.
2. You cannot see the open positions in the trade history tab
3. I have not figure out how they do the month to month PNL. It does not match my stats
4. The performance stats; are not 100% for live trading period; they do cover some backtesting period too

after following some systems for a couple of months; i saw the horrible stuff; similar to what was discussed in this thread; open positions with large losses exceeding 500 pips; and the winners are only 10 or so pips.

I give up at the end; and stopped my following. to my surprise; some of those systems dissappeared from the leaderboard after few months.

i did notify the currensee team few times about the above; but none taken seriously.

IMHO; they have a conflict of interest. they hide the open equity curves; otherwise nobody will follow anyone. Currensee make their $ from the 2% management fee. The more followers the merrier.

PS: i could be wrong about some of the above. So please contribute to this discussion if you think otherwise.

How do you work out that you get better compensation,that may be the case if youve got only a few followers but if youve got guys following with big bucks then you still only get $10. also I hate the ranking system,is is so misleading for followers,they leave trades open and wait until they are winners.we could all do that. Most of the guys on there have a 98%+ hit rate.

Lord Flasheart said:

How do you work out that you get better compensation,that may be the case if youve got only a few followers but if youve got guys following with big bucks then you still only get $10. also I hate the ranking system,is is so misleading for followers,they leave trades open and wait until they are winners.we could all do that. Most of the guys on there have a 98%+ hit rate.

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In Currensee you get the usual hedge funds deals. You get 20% of the monthly PNL from client accounts.

and Currensee company gets the 2% management fee; charged monthly.

I guess in this respect you might be better of at ZuluTrade. Especially if the strategy does not make money.

from client perspective; Currensee is better; because fellow PMs need to make profitable months to get paid.

alphadude said:

IMHO; they have a conflict of interest. they hide the open equity curves; otherwise nobody will follow anyone. Currensee make their $ from the 2% management fee. The more followers the merrier.

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EXACTLY. Those sites and collective2 are in it for THEIR profits. They all take a cut from either the signal provider or the follower no matter what happens. Most of the signal providers are just average punters. There are no qualifications to be a signal provider except to pay the site fee. The site owners have absolutely zero interest in stopping a signal provider that they are collecting fees from no matter how many complaints they get. I doubt you can find 10 signal providers who have been profitable for an entire year. Also, many signal providers have multiple systems but cancel or end the systems that don't produce. In other words, they throw up a system and if it doesn't work then try another.

Peter

wackypete2 said:

EXACTLY. Those sites and collective2 are in it for THEIR profits. They all take a cut from either the signal provider or the follower no matter what happens. Most of the signal providers are just average punters. There are no qualifications to be a signal provider except to pay the site fee. The site owners have absolutely zero interest in stopping a signal provider that they are collecting fees from no matter how many complaints they get. I doubt you can find 10 signal providers who have been profitable for an entire year. Also, many signal providers have multiple systems but cancel or end the systems that don't produce. In other words, they throw up a system and if it doesn't work then try another.

Peter

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all true,but its in their interests to show figures in a genuine way as possible.I dont think currensee do. At least with zulu you can see everything when you look.The draw down takes into account open possitions. I dont see why zulu have to have a 3 pip spread on euro though and actively encourage providers to use major pairs.There are some good providers but as wacky says follow with caution.
Multiple systems are used to get one profitable system so always look for guys that trade from their own account and are in profit.You can only have 1 live account so at least that is something

I spoke with Currensee in order to get some clarification on your post and questions. Here is what they had to say:

First, the equity graphs that show on Trade Leader profiles do include open drawdowns. The graphs are true equity curves and show open trades as open trades gain and lose equity. If you want to see a good example of this, you can look at Joiny Jiang’s C account. He opened a trade on 20 February and closed it on 29 February for a large loss. Along the way the trade drew down more than where it eventually closed. You can see that there was drawdown of 3.29% on 26 February. Graphs are updated daily based on performance at 5PM eastern time.

Currensee does not back-test any strategies and all performance stats show live trading only. Trade Leader results are reviewed in depth prior to acceptance into the program. Also, the management fees are 2% annually, not monthly. The fee is charged monthly at 1/12th of 2% or 0.167% per month.

If you’re looking for any more clarification, you can feel free to contact Marcie Smith, Currensee’s VP of Client Support. Her email address is [email protected].

Rhody Trader said:

I spoke with Currensee in order to get some clarification on your post and questions. Here is what they had to say:

First, the equity graphs that show on Trade Leader profiles do include open drawdowns. The graphs are true equity curves and show open trades as open trades gain and lose equity. If you want to see a good example of this, you can look at Joiny Jiang’s C account. He opened a trade on 20 February and closed it on 29 February for a large loss. Along the way the trade drew down more than where it eventually closed. You can see that there was drawdown of 3.29% on 26 February. Graphs are updated daily based on performance at 5PM eastern time.

Currensee does not back-test any strategies and all performance stats show live trading only. Trade Leader results are reviewed in depth prior to acceptance into the program. Also, the management fees are 2% annually, not monthly. The fee is charged monthly at 1/12th of 2% or 0.167% per month.

If you’re looking for any more clarification, you can feel free to contact Marcie Smith, Currensee’s VP of Client Support. Her email address is [email protected].

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that's what they told me too. but sadly it is not true.

I was following a couple of trade leaders; and the equity curve did not reflect their open positions drawdown. Once the open positions were closed; a large drop in the equity curve of more than 8% in one day. relfecting the loss of the recently closed position.

You could easily see that for yourself; if you assess many of the live equity curves one by one; you will see big drops once in a while. It means the equity curve is closed equity and NOT total equity curve. Open equity curves are usually smoother.

Otherwise the only explanation is they have a bug in their system.

trust me; i spent more than two months doing the analysis live as it happened.

If Currensee lists the open positions in the trade history tab; it will expose this bug.

We welcome Currensee to come here and explain the above; or convince us otherwise. This is perfect opportunity for them to contribute. I emailed them a lot; but with no action taken.

PS: I personally like Currensee platform; and think it has large potential. But the management need to take action; and follow industry reporting standards. That will work in their favour. Hopefully they get the message.

sure but their ranking system shows all those that have a 98% win rate at the top, when they lose they will lose big.

alphadude said:

that's what they told me too. but sadly it is not true.

I was following a coupld of trade leaders; and the equity curve did not reflect their open positions drawdown. Once the open positions were closed; a large drop in the equity curve of more than 8% in one day. relfecting the loss of the recently closed position.

Otherwise the only explanation is they have a bug in their system.

trust me; i spent more than two months doing the analysis live as it happened.

If Currensee lists the open positions in the trade history tab; it will expose this bug.

We welcome Currensee to come here and explain the above; or convince us otherwise.

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Absolutely please join us currensee

overnight i built a random strategy with some exit techniques that mimics many of the trade leaders' strategies.

Test period: 2 years (2010 - 2011)
instrument: USDCAD
Total Return: 171%
winning rate: 92%
Average pips per trade: 9.5 pips
max total equity drawdown: 44%
total trades: 2000
max leverage used: 10x

Dont get too excited. The backtest max drawdown is 44%.
Using robust statistical analysis; the real life max drawdown can reach:
150% with 95% confidence
85% with 80% confidence

in other words; the chance of blowing your account using the above strategy is almost 99%

chart legend:
- black line: closed equity
- green line: total equity (open + closed)
-yellow line: max drawdown underwater curve

Close equity drawdown does not tell you about the risk of this strategy. Total equity curve; resembles the real life; and that is what your broker will use to issue margin calls and close your account.

If we only can find a broker that use close equity curve; we will all be rich.

PS: now i am tempted to sell this system on Currensee. or perhpas Zulu Trade. Halleluja!!!

For me the biggest problem with sites like Zulu and currensee and so on is
purely the kind of people they attract as signal customers.

Vendors have little in the way of in depth risk metrics.
Customers have unrealisic expectations.
The resulting marriage is, for me, a tardfest.
Its just a game of providing tards with what they think they need as they don't know any better.
Cater for the lowest common denominator.

I've never been bothered to look in depth.
From what I have seen, robust, realistic methods with the
primary focus on loss and drawdown are none existent.
All I see is high strike rates, avg. losing trades larger than winners and 1 year sample sizes

Either that or buried by a multitude of "forex megabuck turbotard" detritus.
The focus just seems totally wrong to me, and for that reason alone,
not worth bothering with.

As for Meta trader which is the de rigueur platform, maybe it suits some peoples needs,
personally I uninstalled it after less than a week...
Maybe I'm being harsh or missing something, but thats my impression.

alphadude said:

overnight i built a random strategy with some exit techniques that mimics many of the trade leaders' strategies.

Test period: 2 years (2010 - 2011)
instrument: USDCAD
Total Return: 171%
winning rate: 92%
max total equity drawdown: 44%
total trades: 2000
max leverage used: 10x

Dont get too excited. The backtest max drawdown is 44%.
Using robust statistical analysis; the real life max drawdown can reach:
150% with 95% confidence
85% with 80% confidence

in other words; the chance of blowing your account using the above strategy is almost 99%

chart legend:
- black line: closed equity
- green line: total equity (open + closed)
-yellow line: max drawdown underwater curve

Close equity drawdown does not tell you about the risk of this strategy. Total equity curve; resembles the real life; and that is what your broker will use to issue margin calls and close your account.

If we only can find a broker that use close equity curve; we will all be rich.

PS: now i am tempted to sell this system on Currensee. or perhpas Zulu Trade. Halleluja!!!

Click to expand...

how many pips per trade was it.Put it on zulu,doesnt cost anything

Liquid validity said:

For me the biggest problem with sites like Zulu and currensee and so on is
purely the kind of people they attract as signal customers.

Vendors have little in the way of in depth risk metrics.
Customers have unrealisic expectations.
The resulting marriage is, for me, a tardfest.
Its just a game of providing tards with what they think they need as they don't know any better.
Cater for the lowest common denominator.

I've never been bothered to look in depth.
From what I have seen, robust, realistic methods with the
primary focus on loss and drawdown are none existent.
All I see is high strike rates, avg. losing trades larger than winners and 1 year sample sizes

Either that or buried by a multitude of "forex megabuck turbotard" detritus.
The focus just seems totally wrong to me, and for that reason alone,
not worth bothering with.

As for Meta trader which is the de rigueur platform, maybe it suits some peoples needs,
personally I uninstalled it after less than a week...
Maybe I'm being harsh or missing something, but thats my impression.

Click to expand...

IMHO it all boils down to who is getting what.

if you just jot down how much everyone is getting; suddenly it's all clear.

The last one in the food chain are the punters; who feed their hope; until the tiny accounts blow up.

There is constant feed of punters; and they seem to have short memory. All you have to do as a system vendor is fill your klashinkov magazine with new systems; and start shooting.

Lord Flasheart said:

how many pips per trade was it.Put it on zulu,doesnt cost anything

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Average pips per trade is 9.5 pips

alphadude said:

IMHO it all boils down to who is getting what.

if you just jot down how much everyone is getting; suddenly it's all clear.

The last person in the food chain is the punter; who feed their hope; until the tiny account blow up.

There is constant feed of punters; and they seem to have short memory. All you have to do as a system vendor is fill your klashinkov magazine with new systems; and start shooting.

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correctamundo.
Doesn't mean its something I would personally aspire to though.

I think you underestimating the followers. Yes its possible to get some followers quickly but it will be short lived unless you perform.even good performers fail to get much business.There are some lovely equity charts on their that get very little

Liquid validity said:

For me the biggest problem with sites like Zulu and currensee and so on is purely the kind of people they attract as signal customers.

Click to expand...

I don't really have any experience with Zulu, but in the case of Currensee I do know that each Trade Leader goes through a serious vetting process. Obviously, no one can predict the performance of someone moving forward, but Currensee is definitely incentivized to keep TL blow ups to a minimum, and also to only include those whose systems are followable (e.g. no scalpers because of latency issues). To that end, it's interesting to have seen how much more "professional" the TLs have become over time.

I did suggest Currensee ask for permission to start a dedicated thread where they can address the types of questions and issues brought up here. Vendors tend not to be treated well here, so they are justifiably being cautious about commenting. Because they have been specifically invited to do so on this thread, though, I'll encourage them to do so.

Lord Flasheart said:

I think you underestimating the followers. Yes its possible to get some followers quickly but it will be short lived unless you perform.even good performers fail to get much business.There are some lovely equity charts on their that get very little

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Thats the crux of the problem.
Build up a following by short term unsustainable performance.
Don't get a following by being realistic.
Maybe I'm just cynical.

Anyway, I'll pipe down.
These sites just don't interest me.

Rhody Trader said:

I don't really have any experience with Zulu, but in the case of Currensee I do know that each Trade Leader goes through a serious vetting process. Obviously, no one can predict the performance of someone moving forward, but Currensee is definitely incentivized to keep TL blow ups to a minimum, and also to only include those whose systems are followable (e.g. no scalpers because of latency issues). To that end, it's interesting to have seen how much more "professional" the TLs have become over time.

I did suggest Currensee ask for permission to start a dedicated thread where they can address the types of questions and issues brought up here. Vendors tend not to be treated well here, so they are justifiably being cautious about commenting. Because they have been specifically invited to do so on this thread, though, I'll encourage them to do so.

Click to expand...

Diversify Your Portfolio with a New Investment Strategy & Alternative Investments | Currensee, Inc.

The main page has a scalper in the top trader leaderboard,
although to be fair its not full on scalping:
http://www.currensee.com/files/leaders/CurrenseeTradeLeader-US-LIWWK.A.pdf

The EC curve has flattened off sharply, at avg. 79 trades per month,
coupled to the yardstick against a wall EC prior to that, reason alone to be more than slightly wary.
I have to say my instinct says curve fitted.
If that was my EC, with that frequency, that would be my assessment.
Also the 20% performance fee...

All those on the leaderboard show no more than 1 year of stats.
Even an extended 3yr+ backtest, with correllation backtest of forward test
results would be better than just a years worth of data.
Thats why I couldn't shadow any trade on that site, just not enough info.

I'm not here to bash anyone, so if anyone from Currensee wants to step up to
the plate and answer a few questions, I'm sure it will be interesting.
If these sites want to be taken seriously as an investment vehicle,
more info and clarity is needed.

at least with currensee the scalper has a chance.On zulu the eu spread is rarely less than 3 pips