Brexit - in or out

Pat494 · Nov 27, 2015

The UK's referendum for an in or out of the EU vote will happen next autumn. This will be a major change if we come out and a done thing if we decide to stay in. Cameron is trying to get a better deal for staying in but it looks like an uphill battle.

I suppose it basically will be largely influenced by money in versus money out. But can we put up with :-

1. stupid decisions in the EU Supreme Court over-ruling our courts ? Like votes for prisoners etc.

2. paying in billions to subsidise the weaker members in hand outs.

3. Shambolic border situation where moral principles outweigh common sense.

4. Huge waste of money on 2 Parliament complexes and staff.

etc.

etc.

Pat494 · Nov 27, 2015

The referendum's result will affect the markets generally and Britain a lot. The neverendum Scots may well decide to go their own way but inside the EU. If they thought being bossed by Westminster was bad I think they will find the Brussels muddle worse.

Trader333 · Nov 27, 2015

From what I understand (and correct me if I am wrong) but if Scotland decide to leave the UK they are automatically out of the EU regardless of whether the rest of the UK stay in or not and would have to apply to join as a new independent country. First they would have to show fiscal responsibility which they have so far been hopeless at even with large subsidies from the rest of the UK and if they were accepted they would be in the same category as all the new smaller states such as Lithuania etc

Based on the recent EU experience with Greece, it would be even harder for a newly independent Scotland to gain access without very tough measures being proven by them first which they may well fail to meet.

Splitlink · Nov 27, 2015

I believe that it only takes one member state to veto a new application. Although the UK has said that it would not, there are one or two countries, of the 28, that have internal problems with discontented autonomies or regions.

I wonder if Madrid would permit Scotland's entry? Almost certainly, if there is one country that would block Cataluña from entry, it would be Spain. So breakaway republics have that gauntlet to run, too.

Pat494 · Nov 27, 2015

It is amazing how little is heard from the very expensive two EU Parliaments ( Brussels and Strasburg ). If any major issues arise it is not the EU Parliaments who decides and are on the telly. Oh no Merkel, Hollande, Cameron etc. are there giving their opinions. So why have a sort of Parliament that does next to nothing useful at vast expense ? It's typical of the EU, the waste of public money.

The EU is so corrupt that the auditors won't sign the books. Very nice for the rogues pocketing millions of taxpayer's money.

All together a nice idea but poorly thought through and much of a shambles. The rules need changing.

tomorton · Nov 27, 2015

The EU has been portrayed as an economic issue by British politicians ever since its conception. In fact its a political union and was always going to lead to a United States of Europe but that would be electoral suicide in this country for a PM to highlight.

But we're already in a political union with Europe. Having gone this far, our best advantage will be to manoeuvre for the best position we can. Whoever has most political power in a union of states will automatically gain most financially.

We are already behind the competition, having let old adversary Germany take prime position, so the least risky proposition now would be to embed ourselves 100% within the EU. Possibly even dispose of the pound in order to try for control of the Euro. There is a huge prize available here, but not if you're not in the game.

Pat494 · Dec 21, 2015

The EU is such a money wasting, inefficient, motley group of countries I think Britain will opt out in the referendum.
Stuff the petty fogging rules set out by a useless Parliament and disregarded by Heads of Govt.
Too many bosses and dissatisfied rest. They won't upgrade their systems so abandon the sinking ship imho.
It was miss sold in the 1970s referendum as a trading bloc that has turned into a political nightmare.

Splitlink · Dec 21, 2015

tomorton said:
The EU has been portrayed as an economic issue by British politicians ever since its conception. In fact its a political union and was always going to lead to a United States of Europe but that would be electoral suicide in this country for a PM to highlight.

But we're already in a political union with Europe. Having gone this far, our best advantage will be to manoeuvre for the best position we can. Whoever has most political power in a union of states will automatically gain most financially.

We are already behind the competition, having let old adversary Germany take prime position, so the least risky proposition now would be to embed ourselves 100% within the EU. Possibly even dispose of the pound in order to try for control of the Euro. There is a huge prize available here, but not if you're not in the game.

I'm not sure, anymore. When I see Angela Merkel, a person I admired, offering to let all the immigrants into Germany that wanted to go there and, afterwards, getting cold feet and refusing them entry when they are in Europe, already, and in countries that never did want them but are, now, saddled with them, I despair.

This is the fault of one country and we are 28--all speaking different languages, trying to make laws that need only one vote to block.

As a person who likes the idea of a EU, I'm not sure if we are dreaming.

Atilla · Dec 22, 2015

Splitlink said:
I'm not sure, anymore. When I see Angela Merkel, a person I admired, offering to let all the immigrants into Germany that wanted to go there and, afterwards, getting cold feet and refusing them entry when they are in Europe, already, and in countries that never did want them but are, now, saddled with them, I despair.

This is the fault of one country and we are 28--all speaking different languages, trying to make laws that need only one vote to block.

As a person who likes the idea of a EU, I'm not sure if we are dreaming.

Reason for Merkel's change of heart was to do with losing votes as mass public over react to Paris bombing.

Germany has already taken dollops of migrants and will continue to do so because she has to.

Watch carefully and soon, Japan will be taking migrants but probably from Asia and not ME.

Migrants are the future.

Pat494 · Dec 22, 2015

Atilla said:
Migrants are the future.

The future what ?
Over crowding ?
Germany is trying to make up for WW1, WW2 and the holocaust.
The migrants will be dumped into camps and left to fester I expect and then the jihadis move in.

Atilla · Dec 22, 2015

Pat494 said:
The future what ?
Over crowding ?

Pat494 · Dec 22, 2015

Gotta look on the bright side if you can find one. Perhaps the migrants will endorse democracy and er ................what ?

tomorton · Dec 22, 2015

Atilla said:
Reason for Merkel's change of heart was to do with losing votes as mass public over react to Paris bombing.

Germany has already taken dollops of migrants and will continue to do so because she has to.

Watch carefully and soon, Japan will be taking migrants but probably from Asia and not ME.

Migrants are the future.

Well I kind of agree that migrants could well be our future. I think studies have found that initially large inmigrant movements depress national economies not least by depressing wages. But this doesn't happen in every case and is transient anyway. Once immigrants have adult children born within the host country who reach working age, they form a really driven and energetic core within the population who can be expected to be a great asset. I can't see any country with a declining population as ours is maintaining its standard of living over any serious timescale.

Certainly, the UK we will see in 25 years will have changed from what we know now. But why is that bad? And when did the UK ever improve by standing still for quarter of a century?

Splitlink · Dec 22, 2015

Well, someone might as well enjoy the UK. If we are all dying off, as a race, we can't let the place stand empty, can we?

When I say "we", I haven't lived in the UK for over fifty years, but I'm in Spain and the same is happening here.

Atilla · Dec 23, 2015

tomorton said:
Well I kind of agree that migrants could well be our future. I think studies have found that initially large inmigrant movements depress national economies not least by depressing wages. But this doesn't happen in every case and is transient anyway. Once immigrants have adult children born within the host country who reach working age, they form a really driven and energetic core within the population who can be expected to be a great asset. I can't see any country with a declining population as ours is maintaining its standard of living over any serious timescale.

Certainly, the UK we will see in 25 years will have changed from what we know now. But why is that bad? And when did the UK ever improve by standing still for quarter of a century?

The problem with migration today is the restrictions.

Societies can handle free migration if governments didn't interfere.

So if one has monies one should be able to travel and live off ones means, friends or pay for their own food and shelter and adaptation costs. All within the rules and laws of the host country.

All people know this and if left to the individual legitimate services could be set up in the private industry to cater and thus generating and bringing the cross migration of populace into a manageable proportions.

With restrictions the whole system is skewed so instead of the flows being subject to as and when people choose to travel it's like mass influx of millions.

National borders to me is a little like cages for containing and controlling people like in zoos. Setting boundaries is a restriction of freedom imo.

People are the same everywhere. What we have to look out for is segregation in all it's forms. :idea:

This is also why the European dream is a fantastic one which I vote for.

tomorton · Dec 23, 2015

Well your motives are purer than mine Atilla, I just want to be in the EU because I think we can be powerful politically and get ourselves a better reward as a result.

Atilla · Dec 23, 2015

tomorton said:
Well your motives are purer than mine Atilla, I just want to be in the EU because I think we can be powerful politically and get ourselves a better reward as a result.

I agree with this too, that our greater benefit is from staying in.

If we leave there will be negative consequences for sure imo.

trendie · Dec 23, 2015

I think we are better in the union than outside if it.
The source of concern is that despite a democratic process, the union itself largely undemocratic and not representative of nations. I think they are largely the vehicle for the interests of big businesses to undermine the populous working classes, and also to undermine national interests.

Deciding when national interests can be overwhelmed by union interests is a complex issue in itself.

It is galling to see EU directives undermine our own wishes, but the flip side is when EU directives demand less-developed nations to improve their legal systems, curb capital punishments, give children the rights to schooling, and deal fairly with political activists, etc.

A toughie, but I fall on the side of being in rather than out.
We have the advantage of having influence, rather than a lone voice on the sidelines.

PipsterPipstoffelees · Dec 26, 2015

tomorton said:
I just want to be in the EU because I think we can be powerful politically and get ourselves a better reward as a result.

Cameron recently asked for 3/4 small reforms to the way the UK is related to the EU, he got nothing. Clearly the UK has zero influence in the EU. Where does the idea that we have influence by being in the EU come from? Can you give an example of how and where we have any kind of influence?

We have literally just asked for small changes and got nothing ..... :whistling

Are you going to say trade deals? Well just in case you do, the UK is the EU's largest export market, and when we leave the EU we will continue to be their best customers, as well as forming other deals with the whole rest of the world, instead of being legally bound to not make our own trade deals with anyone else while in the EU. This is a perfect example of how we have less influence by being trapped in the EU, if we want to make a trade deal with Brazil, we cant. If we leave, we can make trade deals with Brazil, and every other country, whenever we want to, and on whatever terms we want to.

tomorton · Dec 26, 2015

PipsterPipstoffelees said:
Cameron recently asked for 3/4 small reforms to the way the UK is related to the EU, he got nothing. Clearly the UK has zero influence in the EU. Where does the idea that we have influence by being in the EU come from? Can you give an example of how and where we have any kind of influence?

We have literally just asked for small changes and got nothing ..... :whistling

Are you going to say trade deals? Well just in case you do, the UK is the EU's largest export market, and when we leave the EU we will continue to be their best customers, as well as forming other deals with the whole rest of the world, instead of being legally bound to not make our own trade deals with anyone else while in the EU. This is a perfect example of how we have less influence by being trapped in the EU, if we want to make a trade deal with Brazil, we cant. If we leave, we can make trade deals with Brazil, and every other country, whenever we want to, and on whatever terms we want to.

You can't be taken seriously as a member of a club if you're openly thinking of leaving. But if you commit to being around and being a heavyweight member of the management committee for ever and ever, the other members are just going to be so much more careful and considerate.

No, I'm not talking about just trade deals. The EU is not a trading confederation, it is / is going to be a political union, a United States of Europe, and that's always been the objective. I want our PM whoever she is / he is, whether I like them or not, to to be the President of the USE.

The EU could just be and stay the richest entity in the world - I would prefer that we occupy the chair or at least have the greater say in decision-making than Germany or France.

Brexit - in or out

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