Financial Spread Bets - are profits taxable

jengo

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I registered with the Inland Revenue as a Self-Employed Day Trader in April last year. I trade shares, CFD's and spread bets. Can anyone please advise me whether I need to declare profits from my spread bet trading as taxable income. I understand it is considered as "gambling" and as such it would be exempt, but as trading is my full-time occupation, would this make a difference.

TIA

jengo
 
Hi Jengo

I am 95% sure that because of the way HMRC sees spreadbetting (as gambling) that you do not have to declare profits. They are effectively prize money which are not taxable.

Can somebody confirm the remaining 5%?

JD
 
I'll confirm the 5% plus back up the other 95%.

Spreadbetting is just that (under current U.K tax law), tax exempt, that is, income and capital gains.

I've spreadbetted for over 4 years and you need not pay anything.

BUT:

Be aware, because it is gambling and not an income (however you see it) it is not taxable you will find it extremely difficult if not impossible to borrow any such somes as a mortgage without having to lay down huge deposits and going self cert which incurs penalties on interest a long with other such penalties.

Banks dont lend to gamblers as a general rule so unless you have your current situation backed up with an income you may find your current mortgage in jeopardy (although they generally dont mind providing you keep up repayments).

This next bit is the part most people find difficult to understand or confusing:

If you are spreadbetting for a living then winnings is all they are. The losses you cannot tax deduct the same as you cannot be tax deducted for your wins.

The only time gambling is taxed is if you are a professional - this means (not a professional trader) but as a business that trades to show proof of system ect, you can then off set your losses against your gains including all other expenses with the idea that you take profit from paying customers.

If trading (betting) for yourself then you need not worry but always check with your current lenders as this could prove a problem should you wish to re-mortgage or get a loan or even HP on a car.
 
If trading (betting) for yourself then you need not worry but always check with your current lenders as this could prove a problem should you wish to re-mortgage or get a loan or even HP on a car.

So does that mean you don't need to declare it in your tax returns at all?
 
So does that mean you don't need to declare it in your tax returns at all?


One simple conclusion is would you have to declare your horse bets, lottery wins ect.

It doesn't matter how much you win, a win is a win.

Previous to spreadbetting I was self employed in property letting and stocks so I had to declare this only. Spreadbet wins have never been declared as these are winnings.

I dont declare £100 I won on pool on a friday night and I dont declare my bets from gambling with spreadbettors either.

This info is readily available from the inland revenue and also on every spreadbet site(U.K) as per guided and monitored by FSA rules and U.K Law.
 
You need to be a bit careful. As you are trading and betting at the same time.

Try to keep your spread betting distinct from your real trading.

Try not to spread bet on the same stocks that you buy shares in or CFDs on, atleast not at the same time.

Otherwise the tax status on your spread bets becomes a grey area...
 
Last edited:
donaldduke has raised a very good point there, if your trading the same instruments as you are betting with remember not to get confused and put it down on the tax return.

It is of course perfectly fine to do both at the same time and would not complicate any taxes due, just remember that you have a legal duty to pay the tax owed but you dont want to pay more than you have to - Tax evasion is illegal - Tax avoidance is not.

To keep it simple, all records should always be kept and if your spreadbetting the same instruments as you trade then be sure to keep records so you only pay the tax that is necessary, that is you only pay tax on the trades and not on the bets.
 
hi Lee,

can i ask? do you ake a good living from spread betting as i spread bet with very litle success. and if so is it much different to trading normally and is ther any specific set uos that work better as a spread better? i'm feeling really stuck and anyy nudge in the right direction would really help.

Iceman17

I'll confirm the 5% plus back up the other 95%.

Spreadbetting is just that (under current U.K tax law), tax exempt, that is, income and capital gains.

I've spreadbetted for over 4 years and you need not pay anything.

BUT:

Be aware, because it is gambling and not an income (however you see it) it is not taxable you will find it extremely difficult if not impossible to borrow any such somes as a mortgage without having to lay down huge deposits and going self cert which incurs penalties on interest a long with other such penalties.

Banks dont lend to gamblers as a general rule so unless you have your current situation backed up with an income you may find your current mortgage in jeopardy (although they generally dont mind providing you keep up repayments).

This next bit is the part most people find difficult to understand or confusing:

If you are spreadbetting for a living then winnings is all they are. The losses you cannot tax deduct the same as you cannot be tax deducted for your wins.

The only time gambling is taxed is if you are a professional - this means (not a professional trader) but as a business that trades to show proof of system ect, you can then off set your losses against your gains including all other expenses with the idea that you take profit from paying customers.

If trading (betting) for yourself then you need not worry but always check with your current lenders as this could prove a problem should you wish to re-mortgage or get a loan or even HP on a car.
 
hi Lee,

can i ask? do you ake a good living from spread betting as i spread bet with very litle success. and if so is it much different to trading normally and is ther any specific set uos that work better as a spread better? i'm feeling really stuck and anyy nudge in the right direction would really help.

Iceman17

Hi iceman,

I know you are not asking me but I thought I would just chip in and say that I think that most people that fail at spread betting are trading very short time frames. If the spreads don't kill you, the slow fills or the company down time or the requotes can. I always made money position trading via spread betting. This doesn't necessarily mean running a position for 6 months - I made many trades that I was in and out in an hour or so but I never went in and tried to get out in the space of minutes. If you are interested in a strategy then you could read my thread "Making Money Trading". I traded this way whilst spread betting with great success and I trade it now as a professional working for a firm.

Tom
 
hi Lee,

can i ask? do you ake a good living from spread betting as i spread bet with very litle success. and if so is it much different to trading normally and is ther any specific set uos that work better as a spread better? i'm feeling really stuck and anyy nudge in the right direction would really help.

Iceman17

Hi bud,

As for making a good living this of course is ones own opinion of what you would call 'good'.

My own opinion is that I earn a comfortable living that allows me to not only enjoy my lifestyle but also grow a retirement fund, further (outside unrelated) investments and grow my trading account.

Take a look at my blog on my profile page. (past performance check traderchat.com)

From here you can see the points made and work out from there how much I would make, even if you work on the bare minimum of bets.

It's no secret to how to make money from the markets and if you want pointing in the right direction I will have a go.

By you asking certain questions will allow me to see where you would need to do more research or pay extra attention to.

But remember, there is no shortcut to trading, no easy way to earn money. I'm sorry to say but it's hard graft. You will get there if you want to but you have to sacrifice your time to do so.
 
In addition:

You would be wise to also look up or/and follow trader_dante, now here is a guy that knows what he's talking about and is a lot more generous with his time and wise words than I.

If you want to ask any questions then feel free to fire away.
 
I registered with the Inland Revenue as a Self-Employed Day Trader in April last year. I trade shares, CFD's and spread bets. Can anyone please advise me whether I need to declare profits from my spread bet trading as taxable income. I understand it is considered as "gambling" and as such it would be exempt, but as trading is my full-time occupation, would this make a difference.

TIA

jengo


I'm unsure if this link is helpful or not:

Trade: exceptions & alternatives: betting and gambling: spread betting

I guess that spread betting is probably tax free, otherwise you could write off your losses against your tax bill. As the majority of 'gamblers' lose out, the government would lose loads in tax....
 
Many thanks to all who have taken the time to reply to my original question - cheers guys! In the meantime, I've been digging around on the hmrc site and have found what I consider categorical proof from the horse's mouth so to speak, that spread betting in any form as a private individual for one's own gain is not trading and hence is non-taxable. This is the pertinent link - http://www.hmrc.,gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM22015.htm.

Happy trading.

jengo
 
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