Dodgy Course & Mentors

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gtspeed

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How many of us have being sucked in by the youtube teachers with tag lines 90% win rate , I am the real deal or by showing wonderful lifestyles , flash car etc. I dare say a few, I watched the vids of Spreadbet Beginner from Chris Chillingworth and watched him come from a bedroom quite a normal guy to the oh look at me I am a trading guru of late. The last one had him in sunglasses thinking he was Bono for gods sake.

Anyway purchased the course and can honestly say total waste of money as very poor in content , the entry and exit is a simple ema cross that only works in a limited environment. His facebook group which is supposed to be a meet place for like minded people is a sham as if anyone is not saying how great his system is are simply kicked out. Spoke to a number of guys who followed and all said the same , he never answers emails unless about the purchase of course and if following all blew their accounts.

I have seen on here number of posts regards these systems and so called teachers such as Vince Stanzonie and the like who lets be honest if so good why sell courses if making a good living from trading. So wondering if anyone has had success from a teachers course or are we all self taught for that winning edge

Happy trading
 
Hey mate,

Sorry to hear the course wasn’t for you. Just as anything in life though, nothing is guaranteed. I know of many that have paid 10’s of thousands on university courses and not passed. Unfortunately they are not entitled to a refund but instead have to pay the loans back for what would seem like the rest of their life. I hear some of these failed students blame their teachers or/and the material or something else in their life has held them back from success. There is no guarantee to any of these courses anywhere I’m afraid, just as their disclaimers state. I’m not having a pop here by the way. Just throwing it out there. You’re not the first and won’t be the last that feels wrong done by.

Unfortunately though, like most things in life and especially when it comes to trading, there is no quick 15 minute solution or ‘easy steps’ to success. It’s all hard work and a lot of time and effort. Spending money on materials is also part and parcel.

Lee
 
Totally agree ,fortunately I have a couple of businesses and do ok ,so not worried about money. However I feel this guy does sell a fantasy that can hurt some people as he is full of self importance without backing up his claims. However it was not lets bash Chillingworth but more weed out the bad and show the good.
 
When you think about how retail traders predict price, they observe the market, keep a journal, look for patterns, test different ideas, and through trial and error hope to find a system that yields consistent profits. At that point the system is something you can write down on the back of an envelope, literally it's just a few rules to define the entry and exit, some position sizes, stops and targets. What on earth is there to teach, much less to sell in a multi-video course?

Unless your mentor is using something like global macroeconomics or stochastic calculus to predict prices and volatility, then they should have one sheet of paper with a list of instructions for sale. Anything more than that is probably a strong sign that they actually have nothing, just cliched information on risk management, psychology, emotions, price action, market dynamics, and so on until there is enough padding to make what they do look like it's worth £500. In that case, chances are their actual trading system doesn't even work anyway.
 
@tt trader
@gtspeed
@edmond360

Listen up guys, you're either going to hate, fight or accept this post from me. If you hate or fight it will mean you simply don't get it and should go home and quit this business until you do, instead of bleeding more time and cash. On the other hand, if you get it, your response will speak volumes, you will be enlightened and will improve immediately.

Lets look at the facts and statements of truth here.

You state (in certain terms):
The course is not worth it as it loses you money
The course is simple and gives more losers than winners
ie, you lose more than you gain
You are obeying the signals and being consistent with the course/program (assuming)

Now lets look at how the markets work:
They go up or they go down, this is how you gain or lose.
You go long or short - simple

Now lets look at this, this is the bit that will determine your future in this industry:

Imagine I was trading your signals but instead I went long when you went short and closed when you closed. In reverse, when you went long I went short and again closed when you closed. What would happen?

Take your time and let it sink in before replying aggressively, out of frustration or in defence that doesn't make sense.

We can all blame everyone else and use insulting words such as snake oil salesman etc for trying to help us, whether it be they are compensated for their time, (paid) or for free - that's your affair and agreement between you and them. But, the bottom line is this:

If you find a system that consistently loses money, give it to me and I shall do the opposite and make money from it.

The sun is shining and I'm now going to the pub for a few. I need to lick my wounds from the Casino last night.

Note: I do not endorse or know this vendor but I do appreciate that if someone offers me something (whether free or for a price), it is up to me to do my due diligence (before committing and before I part with a single penny) to ensure what I am buying is worth it (to me). This being said, not all courses will be for everyone, but some only figure this out after they've bought in, during or after, leaving them disgruntled and out of pocket. See my post above with regards to University and College students who spend 10's of thousands and do not get a job after or fail their course. It's called life and as we know, it's what we make of it that counts.

In the words of Spencer - It's all b0ll0x.
 
When the system has no predictive value, then it's a coin toss and it will consistently lose money due to the spread. The only reason it would look different to a coin toss is because the risk reward ratio is massively skewed so as to hide the raw percentages. That's exactly what this and many other courses do.

It doesn't matter if the coin toss gives 51% heads or 60% tails as the raw percentage, that is just statistical variance, if you try to trade on that or fade it, it is mathematically certain you will eventually get enough consecutive losses to receive a margin call. I can hand you a system with regular losses, you will fade it and setting aside the spread you will make regular wins. But then the three big losses in a row will come. Or I can trade the system myself, remain focused through each small loss, and then get the big profits on the winning trade. But again, it's mathematically certain that eventually the big win will take longer to come leading you to go broke. This is just what happens when you toss coins.

The only way around this is to not play with statistics, but find a system with genuine predictive properties. Chris Chillingworth obviously knows his ema nonsense is nothing of the sort, and selling it regardless is fraudulent. That's just facts.
 
The only way around this is to not play with statistics said:
Well said , have to agree Chris Chillingworth or as now named the Spreadbet Bull****er (find that quite funny) should be ashamed of the bull he peddles. I watched his interview with Vince Stanzoine and could almost be sick at the brown nose approach really awful.

Anyway people like Chris Chillingworth are not worth getting upset or annoyed about, and maybe some newbies might read this and spend their money wisely elsewhere
Click to expand...
 
Lee Shepherd said:
@tt trader
@gtspeed
@edmond360

Listen up guys, you're either going to hate, fight or accept this post from me. If you hate or fight it will mean you simply don't get it and should go home and quit this business until you do, instead of bleeding more time and cash. On the other hand, if you get it, your response will speak volumes, you will be enlightened and will improve immediately.

Lets look at the facts and statements of truth here.

You state (in certain terms):
The course is not worth it as it loses you money
The course is simple and gives more losers than winners
ie, you lose more than you gain
You are obeying the signals and being consistent with the course/program (assuming)

Now lets look at how the markets work:
They go up or they go down, this is how you gain or lose.
You go long or short - simple

Now lets look at this, this is the bit that will determine your future in this industry:

Imagine I was trading your signals but instead I went long when you went short and closed when you closed. In reverse, when you went long I went short and again closed when you closed. What would happen?

Take your time and let it sink in before replying aggressively, out of frustration or in defence that doesn't make sense.

We can all blame everyone else and use insulting words such as snake oil salesman etc for trying to help us, whether it be they are compensated for their time, (paid) or for free - that's your affair and agreement between you and them. But, the bottom line is this:

If you find a system that consistently loses money, give it to me and I shall do the opposite and make money from it.

The sun is shining and I'm now going to the pub for a few. I need to lick my wounds from the Casino last night.

Note: I do not endorse or know this vendor but I do appreciate that if someone offers me something (whether free or for a price), it is up to me to do my due diligence (before committing and before I part with a single penny) to ensure what I am buying is worth it (to me). This being said, not all courses will be for everyone, but some only figure this out after they've bought in, during or after, leaving them disgruntled and out of pocket. See my post above with regards to University and College students who spend 10's of thousands and do not get a job after or fail their course. It's called life and as we know, it's what we make of it that counts.

In the words of Spencer - It's all b0ll0x.
Click to expand...

A great response to this course bashing Lee. You hit the nail right on the head there when you talk of taking the opposite side of the signal :smart:

The meandering, muddled response from all three complainers further illustrates how right you are and suggests its probably more a case of poor student, than poor teacher here ;)
 
Kaeso said:
A great response to this course bashing Lee. You hit the nail right on the head there when you talk of taking the opposite side of the signal :smart:

The meandering, muddled response from all three complainers further illustrates how right you are and suggests its probably more a case of poor student, than poor teacher here ;)
Click to expand...


Eh actually the notion of taking the other side of a bad system is just wishful thinking on your part. A bad system is by definition random, it has an expectancy of minus the spread. To think otherwise is silly.

Over a small sample you can make much more or much less than the spread just by pure chance. Skewing the risk reward is one way to skew the sample, as your results are dependent upon one or two massive winners out of hundreds of trades. So that result is not statistically significant until you've had a hundred massive wins. Simply fading a poor result is stupid and this is a fact, if you had studied mathematics instead of some trading course you would see this without any problem.

But after a hundred massive wins and thousands of small losses, guess what.... the result converges to the expectancy which means you will have lost the spread on each trade and blown the account. In fact, if you had been taught to risk a fixed percentage of the account it gets even worse due to the mathematics of losses. The thing where losing 50% means you now need to get back 100%.

Like I said, the only way around it is to find a way to predict price or pay someone else who has. If you want to look at the P&L to judge systems as "winning" and "losing", then I promise you you're going to become your brokers bitch. You need to judge them by what has predictive value and what does not. The fact most trading educators tell you to just follow my system and don't try to predict price is not an accident, it's done deliberately to fool people into your way of thinking.
 
I think all experienced traders would agree that an entry tactic using an EMA cross for entry plus the reverse cross for exit is not going to be profitable.

But this knowledge is not enough.

A would-be trader reading this still needs to find a way into trading, and they're now going to pose the question, "OK guys, so this system won't work. So what are some systems you all agree on that WILL work?"
 
edmond360 said:
Eh actually the notion of taking the other side of a bad system is just wishful thinking on your part. A bad system is by definition random, it has an expectancy of minus the spread. To think otherwise is silly.

Over a small sample you can make much more or much less than the spread just by pure chance. Skewing the risk reward is one way to skew the sample, as your results are dependent upon one or two massive winners out of hundreds of trades. So that result is not statistically significant until you've had a hundred massive wins. Simply fading a poor result is stupid and this is a fact, if you had studied mathematics instead of some trading course you would see this without any problem.

But after a hundred massive wins and thousands of small losses, guess what.... the result converges to the expectancy which means you will have lost the spread on each trade and blown the account. In fact, if you had been taught to risk a fixed percentage of the account it gets even worse due to the mathematics of losses. The thing where losing 50% means you now need to get back 100%.

Like I said, the only way around it is to find a way to predict price or pay someone else who has. If you want to look at the P&L to judge systems as "winning" and "losing", then I promise you you're going to become your brokers bitch. You need to judge them by what has predictive value and what does not. The fact most trading educators tell you to just follow my system and don't try to predict price is not an accident, it's done deliberately to fool people into your way of thinking.
Click to expand...

I think you'd be better off sticking to your statistical mathematics or something. It seems learning to trade will cause you issues.
 
Kaeso said:
I think you'd be better off sticking to your statistical mathematics or something. It seems learning to trade will cause you issues.
Click to expand...

Learning to trade, so ok, what is it that you need to learn? I don't think following rules from a profitable trading system takes any real learning at all, a child could do that flawlessly from day one. So go ahead, name me one actual tangible thing that needs to be taught by an experienced trader to an inexperienced one in order to make them profitable.
 
tomorton said:
I think all experienced traders would agree that an entry tactic using an EMA cross for entry plus the reverse cross for exit is not going to be profitable.

But this knowledge is not enough.

A would-be trader reading this still needs to find a way into trading, and they're now going to pose the question, "OK guys, so this system won't work. So what are some systems you all agree on that WILL work?"
Click to expand...

For longer term stuff, one whose real financial performance has been audited by a reputable accountancy firm and whose track-record extends back to at least one bull to bear market cycle.

For intraday stuff, one that has been back tested on historical data and then live tested in the real market on an equivalent amount of live price data (not more, not less, but the same, so 5 years of back test means you need ~5 years of live trading), with the results showing no significant deviation in financial performance. In this case you don't need to see an audited track-record because you should be able to replicate the tests for yourself.

If any of that sounds confusing or difficult, then they have something they can go away and learn for free. If the educator refuses to include any of those results or proof, then they should go away regardless and not come back.
 
All well and good to say "poor student" however on a mechanical system that is a simple ema cross, would have to be pretty thick not to follow the said rules of enter here exist there.

As being said the system does not work in the real world and will end up in a loss, trading is hard and that is a simple fact. However to sell something that you know will cost someone a lot of money that they probably cannot afford is immoral.
 
Plenty of snakes out there that will take away the last pennies from people without blinking an eye.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 
tt trader said:
Sad but true , I am on a FX group full Nigerian Generals , wonder if Chris Chillingworth the Spreadbet Bullsh**er trained them, oh wait I think he is organising the Trump summit with Korea [emoji14] but seriously very sad that some people lose due to so called mentors. Rather than rant about loses or poke at "Poor Students" why not change the direction and talk about what can help some traders that can show that trading can be a good place to earn and enjoy
Click to expand...
Because they can't trade so they do the next best thing and con everyone. I am sure there are many good ones out there but I don't care to ever dive in. I've been lucky to have been given good I formation before I entered this endeavour. People are very gullable and its no wonder they are making a killing selling signals and education. Their business model is simple. Keep churning people through the door and cover yourself with small print.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 
Reading this thread it looks highly possible that:

gtspeed is also tt trader and possibly edmond360 as well. Maybe a check by Trade2Win Admin is in order?
 
edmond360 said:
Learning to trade, so ok, what is it that you need to learn? I don't think following rules from a profitable trading system takes any real learning at all, a child could do that flawlessly from day one. So go ahead, name me one actual tangible thing that needs to be taught by an experienced trader to an inexperienced one in order to make them profitable.
Click to expand...

You're right, there's nothing to learn, what there is to know you know already. Good luck (y)
 
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